The Two Words Sabotaging the Practice You Actually Want with Stephen Seckler

[00:00:00] Steve, I'm so glad you're here. It's been a long time coming. Susan I'm just honored to be on your show. You're like my BFF now and we just met like four months ago. I know. Well, to refresh my listeners' memories, uh, back last year at the end of the year when I had a little bit of surgery and I couldn't see very well, I was listening to books on tape and I was like, "Well, you know, I should do something that's business supportive."

So I Googled, and this should make you happy, I Googled the top business law firm business books, and yours came up in the top three. So I downloaded those top three and I listened to them, and then I was doing articles on them. And I, you know, I saw your book. Now Steve, listeners, Steve's book is called, you'll see why I was, you know, immediately downloaded this one, Think Like a Lawyer, Act Like an Entrepreneur.

Can [00:01:00] you hear... Can you make up a title that would attract me more? I mean, it was, it was ringing all my bells. And then I listened to it, posted the article, found so many great insights in there, and within an hour or so of posting it, there was a little message from you thanking me for posting the article, and we've gone since then.

We have. And I'll just make a small correction, which is that the first chapter is on my podcast, but you'll have to read the rest of the book, which I'm sure you did, so. Oh. Well- It hasn't been, it hasn't been recorded. It hasn't been recorded? All right. Then I hope I didn't hear somebody else's book.

No. Well, I hope it was good if you did. Yeah. Well, it was a great book. That's so strange. I'm wondering how I did it. All right. Well, no, I did listen to it, so that's, that's weird because I couldn't read, but we'll figure that out. Let's cut all that out then. That's really strange. Yeah, I only recorded the first chapter.[00:02:00]

But it was... It was definitely your book because I wrote the article about it, so I don't know how I did it. Well, maybe you had a- I wonder if I did a- Maybe you had a bot or an AI- Oh, you know what? ... to read to you. I, I did. My husband, so my husband has bad... Darlene, sorry, you're gonna cut all this out. My husband has very poor eyesight, only has sight in one eye, and so he has an AI that reads things for him and I must have run it.

I'm just looking to see if it's in my Kindle. Is it on Kindle? 'Cause I didn't get it in... Okay, if it's on Kindle, then I could have gotten it. Where's my Kindle? Oh, it's not on my phone. That must've been what I did, because there's no way I, I could have seen it to read it at the time. So I'm sorry, I, I'm sorry I interrupted while you- No, no.

That's okay. No, that's good, because a f- other people went looking for the audio one. So we'll just skip it and we'll talk about... Well, we can t- we can keep the, uh, Darlene, keep the, "Steve, I'm so glad you're here, and we've become BFFs," and, [00:03:00] and I'll just pick it up from there, okay? All right. So first glitch.

So yes, we have. We actually... I read your book and wrote an article on it, and within a short period of time, we were actually both at the ABA meeting in person and got to meet up and sit down and have a little, uh, meal together. And ever since then, we've been able to stay in touch, and just found more and more things in common.

We did. And can I make two quick marketing points? 'Cause those, that story just basically encapsulates some really good marketing points, which is- It's okay to invest time and energy in praising people that do what you do. Don't be afraid of that. You can make friends with people that do similar things or maybe even overlapping things, which is you and I, Susan.

And then allow serendipity to happen. I [00:04:00] mean, I, I didn't know you were going to this midyear meeting. In fact, I didn't even know that you were active in the ABA. In fact, I didn't even know who you were- ... less than a year ago. And you were so kind in writing that- Same. You were so kind in writing, in writing that, that review, and then I didn't just let it go.

I, I reached out to you and we spoke, and then I was going to this midyear meeting in San Antonio, and I didn't... I was there for a board and you were there for your board. And I looked at the list of people who were attending and I was like, "Oh my God, Susan Guthrie's here." And I reached out to you in the evening when I arrived, and in the morning we had breakfast.

So allowing serendipity to happen and understanding that you, you can support people that are driving in parallel lanes. If you're practicing in a similar practice area to somebody else, it doesn't mean you can't help each other in some way. It's such a good point and, and a true kernel or golden nugget, as we call them on the show here, [00:05:00] that so many people, tend to steer away from those who sort of do the same thing.

'Cause we, we have little differences, I think, in, in what we do. I'm mostly helping dispute resolution professionals, although lawyers as well, and, and I think you're more in the lawyer lane, but it certainly overlaps at times. And my listeners have definitely heard me say, you know, that's the beauty of LinkedIn real- really.

That, I... The little story around how we met is exactly what LinkedIn can do for you if you think of it mo- as more than a social media outlet. It's actually a way that you can meet people and connect with people. That's why they call it connecting. You know, I just wrote... I read a book that I liked.

I wrote an article about it because I thought it would be helpful to the people who like my content, and look, now I have a new [00:06:00] friend. Again, thank you. And then you sent me your books. A- and, you know, we do do slightly different things. We do overlap somewhat, but we can support each other. And it turned out not long after that, or actually while we were having breakfast, that we discovered that we're both working on things at the ABA that where we, you know, our missions are, are overlapping.

And so then we had that sudden unexpected commonality. So it w- it was great. Yeah. Now we're gonna hopefully work together on some of those projects. So many things and so many synergies, but I really for this episode want to dive in on some of your golden nuggets for my listeners, because the book is full of them, and the...

You are full of them. So whether they're in the... Every time I talk to you, first of all, I want my listeners to know Steve is not only full of golden nuggets, but he's full of very funny jokes [00:07:00] as well. So if you hear us laughing on this podcast episode more than you hear me laughing on other episodes, you will know why right now.

I'm telling you about it. And actually, the first topic we're going to talk about is the... It made me laugh because you're much more polite about how you say this, um, because you call it the yes but trap, and I call it the yeah but trap. 'Cause everybody is listening to something and I always like, "Yeah, but...

Yeah, but..." The yeah-butters are the people who drive me crazy. And then in your, your vernacular, you had it so kindly phrased as, "Yes, but..." It's, it's my English professor uncle would've appreciated your phrasing, not mine. Why don't you tell me what you mean by that? Why is yes but a trap? I like to also call it yes but disease, so it's not always so polite.[00:08:00]

So one of the qualities-- We have a lot of great qualities as lawyers that make us effective as lawyers. You know, we're skeptical, we're risk-averse, we're good at getting stuff done, we're linear, we're analytical, and those are things that our clients need from us Building a practice is different. Building a practice requires building relationships.

And I heard said not long ago that one of the qualities of lawyers is that lawyers, to law- to a lawyer, a statement is just an opportunity to start an argument. Now, if you're talking to opposing counsel on a deal in a litigation matter, presumably you're not supposed to just be agreeing with everything.

You're not advocating for your clients if you do that. If you're going to lunch with an accountant and they say, "Do you want to go to such and such a restaurant?" You could say, and you say, "Yeah, but I- I'm not really sure that [00:09:00] the, it's gonna be crowded there." Like, we're- we're very critical thinkers.

We're always thinking of ways to challenge statements, and that kind of undermines relationship building, and relationship building is the foundation of building a practice. You know, it makes me think of, because you're so spot on with that critical thinking that lawyers do, and to my listeners out there who are lawyers who are transitioning over to dispute resolution professionals, this actually sums up really well for you all the difficulty of going from one role to the next.

Because it's absolutely correct in practice, as Steve just said, to say, "Yeah, but," as you're working on the details of the negotiation, if you're working out the deal. But if you're in a mediation room and you are the neutral and one of the parties says, "Well, I propose we [00:10:00] do this," and you look at them and say, "Yeah, but," you are having a hard time, you are having a hard time taking on your new role.

And it can cause as, as you just said, it can cause us a problem when it comes to that business side, right? So think like a lawyer. It really goes to the title of your book, Think Like a Lawyer, Act Like an Entrepreneur. Think like a lawyer when appropriate, but act like an entrepreneur in building that practice.

And if I could say something additional about the title. Yes. You and I were talking about a few things. Well, first of all, actually, that skeptical, that skepticism that needs to be put aside, initially we were talking just before we got on here that initially a lot of judges were doing mediation when that first, when mediation really started to take off in the late '80s, early '90s.

And this, there are certainly judges now that can do a good job of being good [00:11:00] listeners, but I think the hat that really needs to come off to be a great neutral is not the hat that is skeptical about everything, it's the hat that's a great listener. So whether you're a lawyer Doing mediation or a therapist, the- therapists or some other professionals come to mediation.

Therapists tend to be better listeners to begin with, but it's important to be able to make people feel heard, right? Yeah. It's one of our biggest gifts, I think, as mediators, one of our biggest tools So the title, we were also talking a little bit about artificial intelligence and how that's gonna create a dramatic change in how law is practiced.

The title actually came from AI, okay? I think ChatGPT actually came up with this title. So the genesis of it was that for a while I'd been doing presentations that I was calling Think Like a Lawyer But Stop Acting Like One. And I had an editor at the ABA who I was working with on the book, and she said, "That's a really [00:12:00] negative title.

Can you come up with something different?" And I kept playing with it and playing with it, and I'm pretty sure that ChatGPT actually came up with that final title. But the reason why I really like the title is 'cause it perfectly encapsulates my thinking. So I haven't fundamentally changed how I think.

I mean, I'm from New York, I'm skeptical, I'm risk-averse, I went to law school, I'm Jewish. You know, I got a lot of things going against me. Or for you. But what I've lear- or for me. But what I've learned is that it's not helpful to, to display those behaviors when you're trying to build relationships, and if you wanna build a, any kind of a professional services practice, you wanna build relationships.

So what I've learned to do is, okay, so I have my default reaction to something like "Oh, yeah, that's never gonna work." And then, like, I don't articulate that, I don't vocalize it, I pause, and then I say, "Sure." Which I don't always do. Yeah. But [00:13:00] there are certain- But you think it. Cer- certainly I'm... Yeah, certainly f- certain family members m- will be happy to point that out.

But anyway but really the title encapsulates what I'm trying to say, and that what I'm trying to say all the time to my clients, which is that you don't have to fundamentally change who you are to be successful at building a practice, or your career for that matter, actually. But you do need to change how you're acting.

You don't have to change how you think, but you have to change how you act, and those are two different things. I have a really-- I was-- As you were saying that, I thought of an example because I just went and did a talk for, um, the partners of a law firm here in Chicago, and they asked me to come in and talk to them about value-based billing and alternative billing, uh, concepts.

So basically talking about the death of the billable hour, which is something I [00:14:00] talk about all the time. And if I could tell you how many yeah, buts or yes, buts I heard in that room the minute I started talking about this idea of doing something different than what they had always done. It was, I think, pretty much every person in the room came back to me with, you know, the hand raise of, "Yes, but that won't work in our practice.

Yes, but that doesn't work. Yes, but, yes, but." I heard it so many times there, and I think, you know, what you're saying here is a really important concept for people to grasp that in a moment right there, right? They, they invited me in, they wanted me to talk about it, they didn't wanna hear what I was saying So I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say yes- Yes

but right now. Okay, let's go.

Uh, yes, they're skeptical of whether the billable hour will, [00:15:00] will be replaced, but it's not just because they're skeptical, it's also because they're feeling threatened. Yes. Like, people try to protect their source of income, and for people who are being subjected to technological change and it's threatening the way they do things, they will hold on to the way things have been done.

And lawyers are particularly precedent- you know, a very, very what's the word? Like to rely- Averse ... yeah, ch-change averse and like to rely on precedent. So, you know, it's, it's that and it's also, people are, are concerned that this is gonna impact their income. So when you're working with a client, help me out the next time, 'cause I have another of the same thing except I'm doing it here for the Chicago Bar Association next week talking about the...

I think the program is called The AI-Driven Death of the Billable Hour, and, uh, we have a robust [00:16:00] question and answer section at the end of the program. So in that moment, how do you suggest when you're working with a client that they work with the other person that they're speaking to? So even not with themselves, but helping others to work through this process, or how do you speak to your clients or help your clients through this?

I think it goes to a lot of, I think you do this as a mediator, it's a lot of good listening. Like, "Tell me more about that. What are your concerns?" Making sure that people feel like they're really being heard, that their concerns are being aired before you jump in and, and give your two cents.

Because until people feel like they've gotten their two cents in, it's harder for them to listen. I think that's the way change happens. People have to first believe that somebody else has their best interests at heart and that they're willing to listen to them, [00:17:00] so I think that's the first step. Yeah.

Well, what I'm hearing here is something that I say to my mediation clients all the time, is that our mediation skills, those things that we go to mediator school to learn and, and hone in the mediation room, are really the skills that help us also to work through these conversations, to work with others if they're in a yeah, but space and maybe if we feel it in ourselves, that resistance, yeah, but signals resistance, maybe it's time to be curious with ourselves, "Hey, we d- where's that resistance coming from?"

A lot of it also has to do with just our identity. You know, we feel like we're smart, we know the answers, and we wanna communicate that we're smart and we know the answers. And what I think we fail to realize is that we communicate that much more effectively by listening. Like, the expression, "God gave you two, two ears [00:18:00] and one mouth," and you're gonna show people how smart you are more by listening and then weighing in than just by opening your mouth.

And what's the expression? Removing all doubt. I think it was Mark Twain. I can't remember who. Was it Mark Twain? Oh, that's hysterical. May- maybe, maybe it wasn't. Just... So anyway, I don't have the exact quote, but some- something like that. I'll Google it for the show notes just so we can be spot on with that.

But I love that it, it's making me think that, in that space, I've always said with lawyers, one of our it's not a drawback, but it is one of the things that can make it difficult, not only in that transition to dispute resolution where you're trying to be a neutral or you are a neutral but also in the business space where nothing is set in stone.

You have to be agile. You have to s- have strategy. You have to look at how things are going and be ready to adjust if [00:19:00] what you're doing isn't working. You know, I- it's a, it's a different game than in the law. But lawyers, we go to law school for those three years to be taught how to think like a lawyer, right?

That, the whole first part of your book title right there, Think Like a Lawyer. Well, that was drilled into our head six ways to Sunday, uh, in law school, and then you practice, and people pay you to know the answers. That is your job, is to know and to give them answers. And in a business, you never know all the answers.

You have to be eternally curious about how it's going, because just when you think you've got it right, something's gonna change, and you're going to have to adjust, right? Yeah and also just because something is a risk, it doesn't mean it needs to be avoided or that it can't be, or that you can't work around it, which I [00:20:00] think lawyers, lawyers that go in-house figure that one out if they're gonna last.

They figure out that, well, now I am the client, and the people around me want to get stuff done. I mean, I think outside lawyers who think this way are also better lawyers personally. But when you go in-house, you can't just raise risks. You have to have solutions, whereas lawyers on the outside are being paid more to identify just the risks.

So again, this has to do with business development also, but it isn't just a skill that you only need for business development. I think you also need it to be a better practicing lawyer. Well, and that's such a good point. I hadn't ever heard anyone put it quite that way, but, that not only do you have to identify the risks, but you have to identify what I call the strategies and protocols to mitigate or eliminate those risks.

That's really a, an interesting way to look at it. That's what I've been talking about with artificial intelligence with lawyers since, three years [00:21:00] ago when ChatGPT dropped out of the sky on all of us. Lawyers have had the response, "Oh, it brings challenges, therefore I won't use it."

And that has been a predominant response in the legal profession. But the Correct response or the response that would suit us better and help us to move forward would be, "Oh, there's risk. What strategies and protocols do I need to mitigate or eliminate that risk?" And I think we're just starting to get to that point for people, where they're starting to realize it's not going to go away.

Uh, it- Well- The risks are still there, and we know more about them now, so now we know maybe more about what we can do. I'm thinking back to the question you asked me a few minutes ago about how do you talk to people that are-- How do you talk to lawyers or whatnot who are change-averse, risk-averse about, about making [00:22:00] this shift.

Have them, if they have institutional clients, talk to their clients about what their clients think, because what they're gonna see, as you know and I know, is that corporations are making big changes in the way they, for example, manage contracts and whatnot. So lawyers are not gonna be sifting through thousands and thousands of documents for document review or due diligence in the way that they used to.

How is a lawyer gonna make money if they don't figure out how to use the tools? Yeah. It's the same thing that's going on in education. I was talking to somebody who teaches journalism, and I was like, "Well, you know, how your, your students have to write." And she's like, "Yes, they have to write, and what I'm trying to instill in them is the notion that you have to learn how to use these tools in writing.

I'm not hiding from them," even though, you know, there are still people in the education community who are like, "Oh, no, no, you have to learn how to write." Well, you do have to learn how to write to be able to function at a [00:23:00] high level in society, but you also need to know how to use these tools, otherwise the people that do know how, how to use these tools are going to, you know, overtake you.

That's-- It's funny, I had a similar conversation today with a good friend who is a professor in law school, and had s- essentially that same conversation around, you know, the role of a law school, which I think is a really interesting, place right now. If we think lawyers are risk-averse, try dealing with those who create the curriculum in a law school.

Mm-hmm ... they are very risk-averse. And so law schools have also tended to shy away or, or stay away from the AI question where, uh, because... and she made the point, and I think it's an intri- a, a valid one, that these tools somewhat erode critical thinking And I said, "If you use them a certain way, they do.

But if you use them [00:24:00] properly, and the human is the person with the judgment, the skill, and the nuance in the room, then the real technician is the one who can take the output and run it through that critical analysis to make sure it meets the need of the client." And I think that's the skill set that is still so important.

It's actually more defined to what we do. You know, you referenced attorneys going through thousands of pages of documents. There's not a lot of skill to that. Okay, so now I can do... Now, so this is how my thinking works, because I can think like a lawyer just like the best of them. Okay, so here's the yes, but, or here's an example of how that's not entirely true.

So about 30 years ago, I think it was, slightly more, I was talking to one of the [00:25:00] deans of the divorce bar, Paul Kane. And around this time, personal computers were really taking over. For those of you who are much younger, there was a time when people used typewriters. But the personal computer was really taking over a lot of tasks that were, you know, relegated to secretarial staff and whatnot.

And so spreadsheets, electronic spreadsheets were being used in divorce cases. Just, it was really just beginning to take off in the '90s. And Paul told me once that he likes to fill in the data himself to... he would take the assets and put them, you know, on the spreadsheet himself so that he could really learn and get comfortable with what the marital estate really looked like.

I do think there is something potentially lost if you're not, if you don't understand how the sausage is made. If you're just given the sausage and now you're trying to decide how [00:26:00] to serve it on a plate. Ooh, I like that. There you go. So- We'll write that down for you. Yeah. So but that doesn't mean that you can't figure out a way around that.

I mean, m- many of us use GPS now to get from point A to point B. Now, I do personally miss using maps or just plain old getting lost and finding myself in places that I might not have expected to be. But GPS is so efficient, so we have lost that ability to just navigate ourselves. Uh, on the other hand, it's way more efficient, so is that a bad thing?

Well, it's way more efficient, and I, I do agree with what you're saying. I've experienced it myself, right? There was an aspect of dealing with my clients' numbers when I was a practicing divorce attorney that there was an involvement in those numbers that would get to a point if I was the one translating them onto [00:27:00] the spreadsheet or something like that, right?

You got a, a better understanding of it. Then I started working with CDFA, Certified Divorce Financial Analysts, who, w- who would do that work and bring me the spreadsheets in a coherent order, and I was now saving the time that I would spend of hours of doing that sort of work, and it would come to me better because it was now filtered through the lens of a professional who had an additional layer of expertise on top of mine.

And then we'd work together in talking about the information that was coming in. So for me, in that new construct, which was different, ChatGPT or the AI is the CDFA, right? They're-- You're running the information, and it's being transposed into a more consumable product for me, [00:28:00] the legal expert, to take it and run with.

Uh, you know, I think there's nuance to it as there is with everything. But I agree it's the technician in us that can understand the difference there. But I f- I personally think that I was able then to do a better job because some of the actual financial aspects were already put into a format that was more easily accessible to the legal arguments that I then worked on, if that makes sense.

It does. Yeah. And the higher level point that I've been trying to make so that we don't-- I at least wanna make so that I don't lose the point, which is that it's not that there's anything wrong with thinking this way, that, that there are sometimes changes which don't make sense or which-- or the risk is too high.

Like, you don't wanna take confidential personal information and put it through just a [00:29:00] consumer-based AI program because you're gonna break your, attorney-client privilege. I mean, there's-- that's a real risk. Yeah. But, you know, we are change-averse as lawyers, and that, that does- the, the-- I-identifying the risk isn't necessarily the bad thing.

It's like what you do with it, and sort of not taking the time to pause and think like, "Okay, well," like you were saying before, "Is this a risk that we can manage, and where is it gonna get us to?" So entrepreneurs think about opportunity. Lawyers think about risk. And I, I like to say that if the world were only made of lawyers, nothing would ever get done.

If we're only made of entrepreneurs, the world would be blown up, right? So we need both of us. It's not that lawyers aren't valuable. We play an important role. We do. But taking that hat off when you're thinking about not just marketing, but also advancing your career, taking some risks to sort of get to the next stage or to build your practice, it's important to [00:30:00] do that because, yes, you can sit in your office and just review documents and draft beautiful briefs, but that's not g- that's only gonna get you so far.

And if, and as things are changing, as they are rapidly with AI, you may actually... That's a risk that's actually there. Maybe it feels uncomfortable because you don't know what's gonna happen if you do start using it. But if you don't start using it, that's a risk too. Just as not changing jobs can be a risk when you think like, "Well, I'm not happy here, but..."

You know, I do a lot of career coaching too. Yes. "Uh, I'm not happy, I'm not happy here, but, you know, I know what to expect." Whereas, I don't know, maybe the company is going down the tubes, or the law firm is having serious problems. That's actually a risk that is not being weighed. That's a, I mean, that's a really good point what you're saying there, and I know you do the career coaching.

And, you know, this is something that I see a lot, you know, that people come to me because they have [00:31:00] a full calendar or a full book of business, but it's not the business they want. It's the business that shows up. And part of the issue, I think, and it maybe goes back to a little bit of what we're talking about here, is because lawyers look at the business side of things through that lawyer lens, and lawyers are very...

I always say litigation was very oriented in the past. Who did what? What happened? Who's responsible? What were the, what are the facts that you can use to apply the law to to get your client what they wanted? Whereas entrepreneurship is very forward-focused. It's very strategic. It's very much about looking for those opportunities in what's happening and making plans to take those opportunities and turn them into what your business wants.

So I think, you know, what I'm saying here now that I've, I've said all this is that it's another [00:32:00] problem for lawyers often that their practice does not grow strategically, it grows reactively, and I'm wondering if you see that as well. Well, I, you know, I, I do see a lot of the clients that come to me, they're having a...

They're stuck. They're, they're- Yeah, stuck ... they're used to doing... They've only done one thing. You know, they went to the best law, uh, college, which got them into the best law school, which got them to the best law firm, and now they're comfortable doing m-M&A transactions. One thing, yeah. One, one thing, and it feels like jumping off a cliff to, to try and think about doing something differently.

So I like to help people get unstuck and to give them some of the encouragement that they need to try some things, and it's not necessarily big, bold steps. As you know, a lot of marketing business development is [00:33:00] small steps. It's just showing up over and over again and being in each other's radar over a period of time and making sure that the people that might refer cases to you, if it's business development, remember that you exist.

So the example that I like to give is I've had five- My, our house was probably painted five times in the last 30 years, and we've never used the same painter more than once. Maybe we used the same painter once, but none of those painters kept in contact with them, with us. We liked every painter actually, but it's the last person that we came in contact with through another friend who was having their house painted, which is, that's the painter we ended up choosing.

But staying in touch with people, just sending them a birthday greeting or, uh, I forget what some of the things were that you said you do, but you had you gave me, like, a whole laundry list of things that you like to do- Oh, just- ... to keep in touch with people ... uh, all kinds of little ways. We've talked about them on the show, but you know, one of my favorite things [00:34:00] is every morning I get a Google alert for divorce, like different things that are going on in the world of divorce, entrepreneurship, different AI.

And when I see something in one of those that would be appealing to a colleague or someone in my network, I will send it to them. Or another one is I look at HARO, Help a Reporter Out, which are media requests looking for expertise in different areas. I love sending those out to colleagues when I see something that's up their alley.

I'm like, "Hey, here's a media request. Go get on MSNBC," or, or whatever it might be. So, there are so many ways you can reach out and touch someone. It's funny, I just gave this talk and someone said, "Well, I don't think you're allowed to touch them." I was like, "Okay, I didn't mean t- apparently I'm dating myself.

Wasn't reach out and touch someone an old commercial or something?" Yep. Reach out and touch someone. Touch someone. Yeah. Okay, so same era here. Okay, we're n- [00:35:00] I'm not telling anyone to actually go out and touch anybody, unless that's what people like. I'm a hugger. I hug people, but I ask first, I've learned.

But that, uh, that ability to build those relationships through a series of little outreaches instead of touches, I'll call them is one of the most useful skills, and it's done without any immediate expectation of being repaid, that little kindness usually Right. And that's, and that's less risky than sort of a big bull trying to reach that general counsel of that bigger company and trying to get them on their dance card.

You know, it's, it's just, it's small little acts. And, you know, what I've come to realize over the years is that I can do that. I'm comfortable with that. I mean, I grew up in a household where my father was a math professor. I write about this in the book, and what I learned from him is that all business people are operators.

That voice is not going away. I mean, it's, [00:36:00] it's muted a lot more over the decades, but I still kind of have that gut, you know, that, that default reaction when I'm thinking about, am I trying to sell too hard here? 'Cause as lawyers, we have an aversion to selling, but you can be successful by just doing Small little steps.

That's one of the points I try to make in the book. Yeah. Well, trying to be helpful to others as opposed to selling yourself to them is... You're right. As attorneys, I think that comes from those three years in law school when we hear about the prohibition on advertising in law and, uh, all of those. So there's a big difference, I always tell people, between marketing and advertising.

So they're not the same thing, although I think a lot of colleagues think that they are. Okay, so I have to give the answer. I just Googled it, where that, what ad that was. It was an ad for for AT&T telephone. You know- Ah ... telling people- That was in the old days then. Reach out and touch someone. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Well, and through the [00:37:00] phone you couldn't physically touch anyone either, so I'm using it appropriately. Mm-hmm. Okay. Before we end up, I do wanna ask one more thing, and it kind of goes with what we were just talking about, because that is who I hear from a lot. I think you hear from these people a lot, who actually have a practice that f- an outsider looking in would say is successful, is they're churning along, they're doing all those M&A matters.

They have been in the same little wheelhouse in their, their firm for a while, but they're just not particularly happy at it. They... And I, I can say I've told this story before, um, I ended up being a divorce attorney, not particularly because I had a burning passion to be a divorce attorney. I actually went to law school and thought I would be on Wall Street, and then did that for nine months and hated it so much I left after nine months.

But [00:38:00] divorce law just turned out to be where they needed someone in the law firm that I was in, and I turned out to be good at it, and those two things converged to be the next 35 years of my life. And it wouldn't have had to be, not that was a bad thing, and I learned a lot of ways of redefining the practice over the years to make it a practice that I loved and especially transitioning to mediation.

But for many professionals, there's building a practice that suits you, and that's not something they ha- realize they have so much control over. So when you're consulting with them how do you open that conversation with them and how do you help them see that path forward to something that's different from what they've always done?

Well, on, on the career side, it's, it's a, a, a series of small steps. I mean, I usually start off with some assessment to try to get a, a higher level sense of what are [00:39:00] their values, what are their skills, what are some of their accomplishments. And just because you're good at something, which it sounds like you were, I have no doubt about that, it didn't necessarily feel like something you wanted to be spending your time doing.

So I get my client to do a little bit of assessment to at least get started, to at least come up with some theories, theory of the case, like what might be a better fit for me. And then I try to get them out talking to people that are doing those things. And again, it's small steps. It's not meet with this person because you wanna see if they're hiring, or just look at jobs that recruiters are calling you about, just go apply for those jobs.

It's not about that at all. It's just coming, you know, making time to have conversations with people that seem to be doing things that might make you happier. It could also be like a lot of times lawyers broaden their skill set if they go in-house. A lot of times lawyers are happier in-house, but not always.[00:40:00]

And when you go in-house, you can be brought in-house because you're an employment lawyer, but then you could start taking on some responsibilities for some litigation, for contracts, maybe real estate, and then you might see, "Oh, here I am at this company. There are some other things that I like that are, you know, that feel authentic to me."

So it's just trying things out and not judging, and that's hard for lawyers. That's very hard for my clients. They're always like, "Well, you know, where is this leading? You know, what's the end game here?" It's like, there is no end game yet. You don't know where you're going. We're just trying to have you identify or, you know, generate ideas.

It's a creative process, and that's hard for lawyers to do because we're always judging. But that's a big thing that I help my clients do. Well, it's, it's great, right? Because it's sort of helping with that pathway because you... Once you know where you wanna go, and that's... you're talking about the process to figure out where you wanna go, that's when you can strategize [00:41:00] to get there, as opposed to having that reactive practice, which is, uh, you know, I had a reactive practice for quite some time until I, you know, I started looking.

For me, it, it was what are the cases that do light me up? What are the ones that I do enjoy working on? And what are the ones that are a little less of what I like working on? What are the things, you know? And starting to move toward, well, then how do I attract the ones that I do and maybe quietly let the ones that are not as good for me go.

So that's something that, that can be very helpful but very difficult for lawyers, very difficult for mediators, arbitrators. You know, we get stuck in that wheelhouse of what we do, and we forget, as I said a little while ago, the skill set can take you to a lot of different places. It can be used- You know, and-

in a lot of different ways. Yes. And in defense of people who take the cases [00:42:00] that come to them- And don't try to narrow it down and focus on what feels more authentic. Sometimes you have financial need, you're under duress, and you need to make a living to support your family, and so you, there are choices that you don't get to make.

But for many of us, as we get further into our careers, we do start to get make more choices. And one of the dirty secrets is that if you do the things that feel authentic to you, whether it's the kind of work or the kind of business development marketing activities that you like, that you gravitate towards, then you're gonna be more successful and more energized, which will again make you more successful.

I like to say, if you don't like golf, don't play golf. But if you do like golf and you want to meet high net worth private equity dudes, which I think you represented a lot when you were in- I did. Back in the day ... back in the day doing divorce. I don't know if you spent any time on the golf course, but that was certainly a good place to meet them.

Not unless I had to. Not unless you had to. Yeah. 'Cause, a lot of high net worth people like the, [00:43:00] like golf, but don't, if you don't like golf, that's not a, a good place to be spending your time. I was in the recruiting business for many years. I decided early on that practicing law after law school wasn't authentically me.

I did, I did gravitate towards professional development. I worked at a nonprofit, Massachusetts Continuing Legal Education, and that felt good for a while, but then we had our second child, and it was time to make more money, and so I opened my own recruiting business. Wanted to be a little bit different and started coaching also.

This was like 30 years ago. But honestly, while there were days where recruiting felt great you know, the day after the check cleared and, But then I'd be praying for, you know, that they live one day past the refund period. And, you know, recruiting, recruit- recruiting, which is, like, a great job.

You know, I just interviewed Scott Love, a recruiter this morning for my podcast and, you know, he genuinely loves it, and I know recruiters that, that love it. But it is a lot of [00:44:00] selling. There's an awful lot of rejection, and as lawyers we're not so good at that. And it really honestly, for a lot of the f- 25 years that I did it, it didn't feel authentic.

Coaching, which I had also been doing for the last 25 years, has always felt very authentic. And so I'm totally energized. I'm like... I mean, my kids are out of the house and, you know, I'm not under as much financial duress. But I'm, like, writing articles on the weekend. You know, you know, I just, I... I'm very energized to do the things that, th- that lead to my success because I'm doing what feels authentic.

Yeah. Well, it- So that's another- I was gonna say it goes back to the old adage, right? If you do what you love, you'll never work a day, but it's very true. I mean, we see it. Well, you won't- We both see it ... you won't, you won't work, you won't work as many days, but- Yeah. I mean- Well, I actually work seven days a week now.

As I just told you, I worked full days on Saturday and Sunday this past weekend because I was so excited about what I was doing that I had my [00:45:00] nose buried in the computer the whole weekend. But it didn't feel like work. It was something exciting that I was, that I'm building out for my, my community.

So it's, it's- It changes things when you start to realize the power of looking at what does suit you and what you suit, and are able to think of the ways that you can move in that direction. When I say strategize, right, that's, you know, how you can perhaps... and you're right. You know, certainly there are many years there where it didn't matter whether I liked being a divorce litigator or not.

That's what was keeping the roof over my head and putting the food on the table, so of course you're gonna do that. But a lot of the clients who s- people seem to be sort of in a few different places, and I wonder if you see this, you know. They're either very early in their career when they seek coaching or some guidance, or they're midpoint [00:46:00] and they're established, but they're not loving it, the direction it's going in.

Kind of they've gotten into that stuck position. Or I get a lot of people who are, well, especially being you know, in that area of people transitioning from litigation to mediation or dispute resolution, people who are later in their career and are looking to establish a career that they just for them, something they actually enjoy and they really wanna do.

And they're very different, those three tranches They are. And again, you know, life stage... Well, my mother-in-law may she rest in peace, she just passed away once said to me, "Life stage is a compelling force." And I, I really live by that adage, that or I talk to my clients about that all the time because, you know, when you're single and you have all the time in the world, you can spend a lot more hours at work.

When you start a family, if you do, then you have young children and you're trying to be a good [00:47:00] parent. And then, we were at a stage where we had aging parents for a while, and now we don't have any parents, so we're probably gonna be doing more traveling. Like, I believe you do some travel too, right?

We certainly try, although first grandchild on the way, so I've heard those can be an anchor to sticking around so you get to see the little ones all the time. So we'll see how that goes. Well, since you queued me up as the person with a sense of humor, queue up the next joke, which is my... Somebody said to my wife if they had known how great it would be to have grandchildren, they would've had them first.

Well, it's kind of I did it all backwards 'cause I didn't have children of my own, but I have three wonderful stepchildren. Um, and our first, first one is having, um, having her first baby, so we're very excited about it. But yeah, so if I could've jumped... I mean, I had the fun of being a stepmom, which I [00:48:00] always say is the best of the, of all worlds, right?

Because stepmom is great. You can be there. You get to guide. But if things are really going off the rails, that's a problem for mom and dad, I think. I think that's appropriate for your mother and father to decide they're, they're great kids. I'm pretty excited about it. So let's just sort of- Oh, here.

Hold. Here's the- Yeah ... the last joke. Okay. I'm actually previewing what your life will be like. So what's the shortest unit of measurable time? It's the time between which you ask somebody about their grandchild and they pull out their phone and start showing you pictures. So I'm the person right now where it's the dog, and I'll...

Like how quickly they're gonna show me pictures of their dog, and I can see, yes, it's gonna change quickly to our little grandson. So these are good. We could do... Next we can go on. I have a friend who is a divorce comic, and she tours the world, has a television pilot, has won [00:49:00] awards with, uh, her, her Netfl- no, not Netflix, Amazon Prime special and all that.

You could go on the road and be the, uh, I, I'm not sure if it would be the think like a lawyer, act like an entrepreneur comic. But, uh, you've got a lot of different areas where you could bring the humor to what we all do. I think my, my jokes tend to lean towards Jewish humor. So I'll tell you my, my last joke, even though I already did.

So a Jewish couple from New York, they're always from New York, are sitting in a restaurant in Miami, and the waiter comes over and says, "Is anything okay?"

So that was my parents, particularly my mother, may they rest in peace, who were kind of like the Costanzas, if anybody is familiar with- Seinfeld ... Seinfeld. Yeah. A lot, a lot of y- lot of yelling. They sound perfect. D- who, who didn't want to grow up, I can't remember what George's parents' [00:50:00] names were.

But who didn't want to grow up with the Costanzas? Exactly. Georgie. Ge- that was, yeah. Yeah, they were great. Tell my listeners, because I, I wanna make sure they know, tell... Give them a, an overview of how they might work with you, the best way to reach out to you, uh, where they can find you. We've already talked about the book, but tell them about the podcast.

The podcast is called Counsel to Counsel. It's now on YouTube. I was very excited to finally make that jump because being a lawyer, I was like, "Ugh, I don't wanna do a podcast for YouTube. It's gonna be too much work." And then I was like, "Okay, and I could also hire somebody to help me." So I finally did that.

You can find me- So you went from yeah, but to and. Oh, I, I didn't... It didn't go to and, I just acted that way. So I was like, "Okay, well, I'm gonna do it anyway even though I'm feeling pretty negative about it." But it's been really fun. [00:51:00] And you can find me at seckler.com, S-E-C-K-L-E-R.com. I got lots of career resources on my website, some marketing resources.

And on the website you can sign up for a free consultation. I do a lot of free consultations. It really doesn't matter to me if you don't hire me, I'm just there to be helpful. So check out the website, check out the podcast, and make an appointment to reach out for a free consultation, and I will be very happy to talk to anybody.

Well, and also go follow Steve on LinkedIn if you're not already following on, him on LinkedIn. He puts out a lot of great content all the time. He's very prolific. People are always giving me a hard time about how much I put on LinkedIn. I think you beat me out. You're, you're pretty good. You're pretty much an everyday poster or something valuable, but there's a lot of really good content there, everyone.

Okay, very last [00:52:00] humorous comment. Since I'm at a stage in my life where I love coaching, I'm not planning to stop doing it anytime soon, but I really actually have gotten to the point in my life where I love marketing. So what I like to say is my clients are getting in the way of my marketing My marketing is getting in the way of my choir.

My choir is getting in the way of my squash game. And la- and I've added one more, which is that my squash game is getting in the way of my medical appointments. The stage of life that we are all in, and if that's not your stage of life, this is what you have to look forward to, folks. Absolutely. We can tell you.

We can tell you. Well, I'm- My life can serve as a warning to everyone else. This is where you're all headed. I- thank you, because I don't often get to laugh my cheeks hurt bec- from smiling through this episode, so thank you. That is a bonus when I do a podcast episode. Listeners, I will have all of Steve's links in the show notes for you, everywhere that you can [00:53:00] find him to the book as well.

Steve, thanks so much for coming on. This was a lot of fun, and very helpful for my listeners. It was really fun and, like when somebody who I really respect and admire invites me to do their podcast, it's- it really makes my day. And when I read your review of the book, I was like, "Oh my God.

Who is this person?" This is like... So thank you so much for that. You really- Oh ... you made my, you made my year. Oh, well thank you. It was, it was a pleasure to do it and right- as I said, right from the title, you know, you had me hooked. So it's wonderful when, uh, you, you go out there in the world and you find someone that has so many just moments of wisdom that you can share with others.

So you may not know it, but some of your golden nuggets come out of my mouth when I'm talking to clients all the time. And, uh, now that, now they'll have heard it from the original mouth so I appreciate it so much. Thank you. Well, right back at you. [00:54:00] Mutual appreciation society. Perfect.