Episode 174: Self Awareness for Lawyers

Stephen Seckler (00:03.74)
Welcome back everybody. Just a reminder that if you are listening to Council to Council on one of the audio platforms like Spotify or Apple Podcast, you can also find us now on YouTube. If you're watching on YouTube, it's nice to have you here. Today we're going to talk about something that comes up almost every... See, I've already done it. Cut that out, Jalco. Okay. Today we're going to talk about something that comes up in almost every coaching conversation I have with lawyers.

self-awareness, and how understanding the way you're wired can impact everything from how you lead to how you build relationships and grow your practice. There are a number of tools out there designed to help with this, but not all of them are created equal and not all of them are used effectively. Today we're going to focus on how assessments, particularly the disk, can be used in a practical way to help lawyers better understand their strengths, their blind spots, and how they show up with clients,

colleagues and prospects. My guest is John Kormanek, a professional certified coach who works with lawyers around the world and the author of Break the Law, a story of a reimagined career and a reclaimed life. Before launching his coaching practice, John spent more than 20 years as a practicing attorney, including serving as a deputy attorney general, working in private practice and owning and leading his own law firm for 16 years.

John, welcome to the show.

John R. Kormanik (01:34.35)
Thanks for having me, Steve. It's awesome to be here.

Stephen Seckler (01:39.004)
Can you start by walking us through your career path, in particular once you decide to become a lawyer, and what ultimately led you to step away from practicing law and move into coaching?

John R. Kormanik (01:50.607)
Absolutely. So before I was an attorney, I worked in healthcare. was a respiratory therapist and my wife and I had a daughter. She was two at the time and I kind of went home one day and I said, you know, I'm bringing my work home with me as a healthcare professional and I don't like that. And so I want to go to law school and my wife supported me. And so I went to law school. I did well and that took the family to Boise, Idaho.

where I clerked for the Idaho Court of Appeals. I was in the Court of Appeals. I was in government, as you mentioned, as a deputy attorney general. And then I was in private practice at a mid-size firm for Idaho. And then in 2016, I'm sorry, 2006, two friends of mine who I had clerked with at the Idaho Court of Appeals and myself opened our law firm, Corman & Kalam & Sneed.

From the get-go, I kind of took over the managing partner role. I have a business degree as well as a legal degree, so it seemed like a natural fit. And I was good at it and I liked it. One of my partners was well known for walking the halls saying, I just want to practice law. So he was just able to practice law. I led the law firm and then...

pre-COVID, so 2018 or so, I began to think what the next chapter of my life looked like. And two things came to mind. I wanted to be geographically independent, and I wanted to have a greater impact in the world. Now, the legal work that I did, I was a criminal defense lawyer. did federal white collar crime, and I was on the death penalty panel in Idaho for post-conviction.

and as a second chair in trial. And so I had impact, but I really believe what Steve Jobs said, you know, we're all placed here to dent the universe. And I didn't think that I was denting the universe. And so I went to my wife and I said, you know, I'm gonna step away and become, I don't know what. And she said, well, you probably should figure that out before you step away.

John R. Kormanik (04:14.538)
So I had several conversations with trusted advisors of mine and colleagues of mine and law school friends of mine and decided coaching was for me. The people I coach, it's an automatic fit. I coach only lawyers and now I am geographically independent as well. I can live wherever I want to live and coach people all over the world.

Stephen Seckler (04:41.756)
Why don't you tell us a little bit about who are your clients and what are some of the things you work on with them?

John R. Kormanik (04:48.524)
You bet. So my clients are founders of law firms who have grown their firm to five or more attorneys. And the thing that's going on is they still have that true solo or that solo or small law firm owner running around in their head and they get in the way now instead of

from moating growth in their law firm, they actually wind up holding it back because they still have this identity that is really tied to control and ownership and driving things as opposed to the identity of visionary and leader and master communicator. And so the things that I work with them are just those things, leadership, communication.

letting go, changing their identity, evolving so that they can be the leader that their law firm needs them to be to allow the law firm to continue to grow.

Stephen Seckler (05:58.469)
Now you have an international practice and in fact you are in Portugal, but like me, you're from the New York metropolitan area and you've lived in California and Idaho. So you've had a lot of cultural exposure to different types of cultures from aggressive like New York, where people are prone to interrupt to show that they're interested in the conversation.

to a more, let's say, genteel style of communication and culture. So can you say a little something about Portugal and also how you ended up there with your wife?

John R. Kormanik (06:36.385)
You bet. Portugal, it's a lovely place. My wife and I were first in Portugal about a decade ago, about 10 years ago. And we were walking around the old town that we live in, which is Lagos, L-A-G-O-S. And I said, you know, I could live here. And she said, absolutely not. There's no way. And so it's amazing what 10 years will do.

Stephen Seckler (06:58.45)
Ha

John R. Kormanik (07:06.285)
The people are, my heart is full. The people are so friendly. They are so helpful. I'll give you a quick anecdote. I went to the post office here and you need to show the receipts, the electronic receipt to get your package and your passport to get your package. And the lovely lady behind the counter, her name is Denise.

and she speaks English as most people do here. She said, you know, I need the number. And so I read the number to her in English and I looked at her, said, I promise that I will learn how to say the numbers in Portuguese if you help me. And she smiled. And so now every time I go to the post office, I learn just a little bit of Portuguese, just a little bit. And so my heart is full.

As far as how we wound up here, the world is a great big place. As I mentioned, right, one of the reasons for stepping away from being a practicing lawyer was not burnout or stress or anything else. I loved being a lawyer. It was to experience the world. And so my wife went from there's no way to why not? Why not give it a try? And so we've dedicated two years to being in Portugal and seeing how it works out.

Stephen Seckler (08:37.084)
Just to point out what may or may not be an obvious contrast, if you were at a post office in New York and you did that, the person in line behind you would be really mad.

John R. Kormanik (08:51.597)
Yes, I would have never done that in New Jersey. Move along, man.

Stephen Seckler (08:53.594)
you

Keep it moving.

John R. Kormanik (09:01.651)
Exactly.

Stephen Seckler (09:05.958)
How did you end up picking up clients internationally?

John R. Kormanik (09:11.741)
I speak, I network extensively. You and I are both members of Provisors. That's how we met. I'm also a member of an organization called IR Global. I'm a trusted partner with IR Global, which is an international networking organization of outstanding attorneys and financial advisors. And I just, I love to talk to people.

It's kind of in my DNA, it's who I am. And so I will do online workshops. These past two years, I did a live workshop in Paris in 2024. In 2025, I did a live workshop in Berlin, Germany. In 2026, I'll be doing a live workshop in Lisboa, Lisbon, Portugal, all connected with different networking organizations.

And so that's how I get international clients. just, I like to talk. I do a LinkedIn live once a month that winds up on my YouTube channel. Congratulations on moving to YouTube, Steve. That's a wonderful, wonderful thing for you reaching more people because people need to hear you and what you have to offer. And so it's just, it's just talking with people and

Stephen Seckler (10:26.588)
Mm-hmm

Stephen Seckler (10:38.268)
Well, a couple of points I just want to underscore. Getting out and not just sitting in your office. Very important. I assume that this also energizes you,

John R. Kormanik (10:48.717)
Yes. Yeah, I'm, you know, I'm not an extrovert. I'm not an introvert. I'm an ambivert. So I can change. But when I go out and I'm connecting and networking, I do need downtime afterwards. So, you know, for all you introverts out there, I get it. I see you. I understand the struggle is real. And yet in order to, in order to serve,

the people that you serve, it's incumbent on you to get out there.

Stephen Seckler (11:23.28)
I also want to underscore another point that I always try to make to my own clients, which is that whatever you do do to get out of your office needs to be authentic and needs to feel comfortable.

And speaking is not for everybody, but sometimes one-on-one networking is really the way to go. And I'll say one last thing to just pick up on what you said about video. I did this podcast for, I think, eight years without going to video. And maybe eight years ago, it wasn't as common to be on video. I only started doing this in January of 2026. It took me a long time to get comfortable. But after practicing, after being on virtual platforms so many times,

especially a lot of it actually through provisers, but doing presentations and being on panels, I got better at it and I took the risk. So that's something that even if it doesn't necessarily initially feel authentic to you, you can get better at something or you could decide, I really don't like this. It really drains me. I don't like golf. I'm not playing.

John R. Kormanik (12:28.332)
100%. You know, I talk with clients all the time about what they say, right? Them out there in the world, the experts, the gurus. None of that matters. Really none of it matters. What matters is that you find something that works for you and do it. The caution is...

stretch yourself a little bit. You got to stretch yourself a little bit because that's where growth occurs. That's where personal growth and evolution occurs. So if you're super comfortable, it's time to add something else into the mix.

Stephen Seckler (13:07.89)
great advice.

How would you say your experience as a lawyer shapes the way you approach coaching today?

John R. Kormanik (13:23.244)
I think that because of my clients, I can do things with my clients. I can call my clients out. I can push them, right? We mentioned growing up in the greater New York area, I'll put a little footnote, I was in Jersey. But you know, I...

Stephen Seckler (13:46.501)
You

Where ex where you're from?

John R. Kormanik (13:51.469)
Well, 16W are on the turnpike and 163 on the parkway. I can push my people and I like to push people. I like to stretch people. will not stretch them so far that they break, but I will stretch them. And I think because I practiced law in criminal defense specifically, I think it didn't create it in me.

just kind of fed it, right? It's kind of, it's part of who I am is pushing people, pushing myself first and foremost, and then pushing people to stretch a little bit, to be uncomfortable. So I think that that practice allowed me to do that. Quick, another quick anecdote. I coach somebody for a while and then he walked away, as most of my clients do, right? They walk away, we take the training rules off, they go out, they do their thing.

He came back. He's like, John, I think it's time. I said, okay, talk to me about this. So we were talking about it I said, I don't want to coach you. He said, wait, what? said, you're quite honestly, you're boring me right now. And he was offended, straight up legit offended. And he said, what are you talking about? So I talked to him about what he was saying. And in essence, the goals that he was set,

Stephen Seckler (15:07.238)
Wow.

John R. Kormanik (15:18.188)
just really required him to maybe tweak his systems or work just a little bit harder. And I told him, I said, that's boring. What we want is we want you to have to evolve. We want you to be different, to have to be different and go into that space. And he wound up, we wound up teaming up again. And about six months later, he said, you really offended me. And I said, He looked at me and he said, thank you.

because I was playing small and that's not who I am. So being a criminal defense lawyer, having to push back against all the resources of the government, being from Jersey, it really, it feeds my coaching of, this is not a, not someplace where you're gonna have me say yes to you all the time. I'm gonna challenge you some, actually a lot.

Stephen Seckler (16:16.562)
I usually ask permission first before I'm offensive. May I be offensive to you?

John R. Kormanik (16:20.268)
Well, know, offensive is just somebody interpreting what you said, right? I just said the words.

Stephen Seckler (16:25.659)
All the way on half.

Stephen Seckler (16:33.52)
I wrote a blog post a while ago about people saying should to you because people tell me all the time you should read this and I'm thinking like you should stop telling me what I should do. You know you're not the boss of my body and I don't don't I don't think anybody in the history of the world has ever reacted well to being told what they should do but clearly you communicated with this guy in a way that really got through to him so congratulations to you.

John R. Kormanik (16:47.34)
Yeah.

John R. Kormanik (17:00.844)
Thank you. And I knew him, right? It wasn't cold. It I knew him and we had a relationship. And so I felt I had permission even though I didn't ask for

Stephen Seckler (17:17.234)
Another practice tip there, build relationships before you becoming the advisor.

John R. Kormanik (17:19.692)
You

Yes.

Stephen Seckler (17:26.16)
When did you first start using assessments? Was that from the get-go when you started coaching?

John R. Kormanik (17:31.336)
It was from the jump. I think in large part because of the audience that I coach, the clients that I coach, lawyers are, they like paper, right? They like to be able to see things. And I can talk about personal evolution or I can talk about communication or I can talk about mindset.

All day long, but unless and until we both have a common language around what it is that we're talking about and my client.

buys it, understands it, buys into it. It just, it won't work. And so assessments are a gateway, as I see it, are a gateway to how the clients operate at the beginning of our relationships.

Stephen Seckler (18:39.43)
Let's get into the heart of our subject matter today and dig a little bit deeper. So you use two assessments primarily. I'd like you to talk a lot about the desk, but tell us about what are the two assessments that you use.

John R. Kormanik (18:54.505)
You bet. I use both the Energy Leadership Index Assessment and DISC. Just real briefly, the ELI is an attitudinal assessment. So it's not a personality tool, it's an attitudinal assessment. In essence, the ELI, as I describe it, is we all wear these lenses as we view the world. They're transition lenses. They get dark in the sunshine, they get light when you're inside.

When we're under stress, our lenses get dark. When we are not under stress, our lenses get light and we view situations differently. That's the ELI. The disc, I really love because the disc is a way for my clients to talk, to understand how to communicate with their teams and to have their teams understand how to communicate with

my client who's the founding managing partner of the firm. And when communication at a really high level happens, a law firm can move forward in ways that it can't otherwise. So that's why I lean on the disc.

Stephen Seckler (20:12.786)
When you administer the disc, and these are self-assessments just for anybody listening, when you administer the disc, do you generally give it to the whole team? Does everybody take it?

John R. Kormanik (20:26.197)
Why? Not necessarily. And here's why. Because I want my client to be able to learn who they are communicating with without knowing from an assessment. And why I think that's important is because my clients communicate with their teams, my clients communicate with their clients, my clients communicate with their families, my clients communicate with their faith community.

with their friends, you get it. And we can't do an assessment for everyone in the client's orbit. And so I will do a disc for my client and we'll do a 90 minute debrief on the disc. We really get into their results, what it means, how to use it for them to look out with their team or with their family and communicating.

And then we will touch on it during our coaching sessions. They will bring up, I had a client who was an S. She was a solid S all day. And every single coaching session, we spent about five minutes where she would talk about how she fed her S in the previous two weeks, how that was important to

So that's why I don't necessarily offer it to the team because I want my client to use their knowledge to make an assessment of who they're communicating with and then experiment because that I think serves them better.

Stephen Seckler (22:11.526)
Right, so the world, you don't have people walking around with their assessment letters on their forehead. Although I do think that everybody should be required to wear their name on their forehead because I have a lousy memory for names.

John R. Kormanik (22:18.677)
Great.

John R. Kormanik (22:22.827)
I'm out.

John R. Kormanik (22:26.603)
maybe it's the New York metropolitan area. Maybe it's how we were raised, right? It's that post office. Dude, I don't want your name. I just want you to get out of the way, right?

Stephen Seckler (22:36.752)
Right, right. All so is the ELI a similar tool that would just mostly be administered to the leader?

John R. Kormanik (22:45.963)
Yes, the ELI has a 360 component, but I like to use it in just with the leader with my client. And then they can learn and grow because as you say, right, they're not gonna have their energy profile or their disc letters on their foreheads or their lapel or even on their cards, their business cards.

Stephen Seckler (23:12.786)
I've heard though of organizations that have put people's, this is when people were in the office more, put people's Myers-Briggs letters on their office door, which does seem a little bit crazy. anyway, I want you to dig a little bit more deeply into the disc and give us a little bit more of an overview, particularly for somebody who's not familiar with it at all. So can you tell them?

us a little bit more about what are the elements or components of disk.

John R. Kormanik (23:44.555)
100%. Disc, the way that I use disc is as a as a tool for communication. And I'll start off with the George Bernard Shaw quote that I love. The biggest mistake in communication is the illusion that it has occurred. If we remember that, we will never again say why

Didn't they understand me? No, it's not them, it's us. So for DISC, D-I-S-C. D is fast-paced task oriented. It's checklist driven, we are moving, we're getting to the goal. Communicate with me with facts, not with feelings. I don't care about your feelings, I care about the facts.

and we're moving. So hop on the bus or get out of the way, right? That's D. I is fast paced, people oriented. We're moving, but we're moving as a team and I wanna make sure that we're all here together and so let's get going. So there's a pace and a focus and a priority. S is slow pace and people oriented.

We are gonna slow down a little bit. We are gonna make sure that Jane or Joe really understands what we're doing to the detriment sometimes of forward progress.

Finally, C. C is slow-paced, task-oriented. Many attorneys have either C as their primary or their secondary communication style because of the fact that we are risk-averse people. We try to minimize risk all day long.

John R. Kormanik (25:52.095)
And that's what Cs do. Cs are very fearful of failure. They're very fearful of not being clear. They're very fearful of disappointing. And so when we have that understanding, that D-I-S-C, and we are looking at someone across the table from us on our team, I recognize that I'm a DC, which is...

create some internal tension with me because I like to move fast and yet I'm risk averse. So I break things, but then I'm kind of sorry that I broke them. But I can recognize the person sitting across from me and guess, I'm going to guess that they're an S. And because they're an S, I'm going to communicate with them a little bit differently. I'm going to talk about how they feel about this. How do you feel about this?

What's important to you from a team perspective, making sure that everybody's along for the ride? If someone's talking to me, it's Joe Friday. Just the facts, ma'am. Just the facts, please. Because I am already jumping ahead because I am fast-paced. I'm jumping ahead to, okay, well, here's what we're gonna do. Again, oftentimes to my detriment. It's not necessarily a good thing.

Stephen Seckler (26:54.61)
you

John R. Kormanik (27:15.526)
It's just a thing. So D, fast-paced, task-oriented. I, fast-paced, people-oriented. S, slow-paced, people-oriented. C, slow-paced, task-oriented.

Stephen Seckler (27:33.648)
Wow, that was really, that was great. I've never heard anybody explain disk so simply.

John R. Kormanik (27:39.055)
well, thank you. I try to make it simple. Otherwise, you don't you you won't understand it and you won't engage you won't use it.

Stephen Seckler (27:47.911)
I think that I've struggled with a lot myself in using assessments. Like 30 years ago, I got trained in the Myers-Briggs. And Myers-Briggs, which has been a little bit discredited, although I still find it very useful and it explains every point of conflict in my own marriage, I...

We're both extroverts, but the way we make decisions is completely the opposite. anyway, but anyway, having a tool that's really complicated to understand makes it less valuable, I think, because lawyers are busy, our clients don't have a ton of time, and you don't want them to be having to spend hours figuring out what is their disprofile mean. But having said that, and it's a really simple tool, sounds like, because I'm not as familiar with it.

Can you give an example or two of like a quick aha moment that a lawyer had or anything that was really helpful with, I don't know, you haven't mentioned business development, but this is also good for business development. So maybe an aha moment in general, and then also a useful way it's been used in business development.

John R. Kormanik (28:56.724)
Yeah, so I'll go back to that client who was the S, right? We began our coaching relationship. All of my coaching relationships are one year long. You don't work with me for less than a year because of the hard work that we do. So I start off with the ELI and then we do the disc. And then we were talking about it. And at the beginning, she...

really didn't understand her communication. She didn't understand why there was tension in her communication style and how she was feeling about it. The law firm treated her like a mom. She's a managing partner of a multi-million dollar law firm with, you know, 10 lawyers and the relevant number of support staff, all this stuff.

John, they treat me like a mom. Well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about it for a little bit. Why do you think that is? And we went through the coaching process, right? Which is me asking questions, just revealing doors and having her think about it. And she said, well, I think it's because as the managing partner, I have to get stuff done. And I said, and?

And she said, and I think I'm afraid of leaving people behind.

John R. Kormanik (30:32.233)
It's your S. That's the conflict, right? Get stuff done is a D or I. We are fast paced. S is slow paced and people oriented. So you are different. And part of the disc debrief is natural state versus adapted state. Our natural state is, as I describe it,

It's not when we're home, it's not when we're out of the office, that's not it. It is when we're Tom Hanks on the beach in Castaway, before Wilson shows up, before the volleyball shows up. Because when Wilson shows up, Tom Hanks acts differently, because there's somebody else there, right? And so it is, you are on a desert island, that is your natural state. Your adapted state is how you think you need to be.

And her natural state was an S and her adapted state was more D. And it was a significant conflict for her. And when we walked through this, she was like, And then my question, of course, to her was, do you have to be the way you think you have to be? Or can you be more natural? Not all natural, maybe, but can you be more natural? That was the aha moment for her.

Stephen Seckler (31:59.025)
Wilson!

John R. Kormanik (32:01.105)
Wilson. He's different when Wilson shows up. If you all haven't watched Cast Away, watch it. It's a great movie.

Stephen Seckler (32:11.002)
it really is. Okay, so in business development, how is this tool helpful?

John R. Kormanik (32:17.871)
you can look again, when you get, when you have an understanding of it. And it is simple as I describe it, right? It's a simple thing. When you're looking at someone who you're trying to have a relationship with, if you don't understand their communication style, it's really hard to build a relationship. It's just, it's really hard because you're speaking, you know, like you're from Brooklyn and the other person is speaking Portuguese.

And it just, it makes the relationship building more difficult. So if you can look at them and just ask a few questions, hey, when was the last time that you, you that you struggled with your team or whatever, right? A personal question for them. And you can get some insight. And then when you learn their communication style, you can be a chameleon. That animal has gotten a bad name.

I think being a communication chameleon is brilliant and essential. You can be a chameleon, meaning that you can alter your communication style so that they receive the message. And in networking, them receiving the message is what really matters.

Stephen Seckler (33:37.362)
Great, great, great advice. Okay, we're getting closer to the end here. So what are some of the limitations of DISC or maybe of assessments in general?

John R. Kormanik (33:48.168)
Yeah, the limit, I think the overarching limitation of the assessments in general, whether it's ELI or DISC or Myers-Briggs or anything else, is when we get the results, we adopt a fixed mindset of, that's just who I am.

That is not true. It is not true. I'm gonna say it again. It's not true. It's not who you are. It's how you showed up in that moment. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. And it's not fixed. You can move it. You can move your personality. You can move your communication style. You certainly can move your attitudes, perceptions, and beliefs. It's a tool to create awareness.

And I will tell clients this all the time. This is not who you are. It is just kinda how you showed up this day. So let's take a look at it. That's the biggest problem I think with assessments is, well, well, that's who I am. It's not.

Stephen Seckler (35:01.89)
If a lawyer takes away one thing from this conversation, what do you want it to be?

John R. Kormanik (35:10.255)
You are on a journey of continual evolution and growth. Assessments are one way to find out where you are right now. They are not who you are. And the other thing is the world is a great big place. The reason that you became a lawyer was to experience freedom. Get out there and experience that.

Stephen Seckler (35:35.312)
and Portugal has great food.

John R. Kormanik (35:37.854)
Portugal has great food. Come visit.

Stephen Seckler (35:44.55)
final question they ask all my guests what is one podcast streaming television series or book that you'd recommend purely for enjoyment

John R. Kormanik (35:53.979)
Aaron Sorkin's The Network. It's on HBO. I just rewatched it. My wife was out of town. She was on a medical mission to El Salvador, helping Salvadorans with total knee and hip replacements. She's one of my heroes, my wife is. But I rewatched The Network. It's got Jeff Daniels. It's got a great cast. The story, even though it's from years and years ago,

is relevant today. It's very entertaining. It's very engaging. the network.

Stephen Seckler (36:30.83)
Okay, I'll add that to my list.

Stephen Seckler (36:35.484)
John, this has been a great conversation. Thanks so much for joining us. I really appreciate it. If anyone in our audience has follow up questions, how can they reach you?

John R. Kormanik (36:46.643)
You can go to my LinkedIn. You can DM me on LinkedIn. You can go to my website, which is johnrkorminic.com, just my name. It's on the screen there and I know it'll be in the show notes. Or you can email me at johnrkorminic.com. I'm out there on all the socials. Connect with me. I'd love to have you.

Stephen Seckler (37:10.606)
And where could they find your book?

John R. Kormanik (37:13.755)
It's on Amazon. Break the law.

Stephen Seckler (37:19.002)
Okay.

Stephen Seckler (37:28.208)
I hope you enjoyed this episode. you did, please tell others and rate us on iTunes or your favorite podcast app and share it with someone who you think might be interested. And if you're watching on YouTube, please hit the subscribe button. It will help others find us. If you'd like to continue the conversation with me, I welcome your inquiries and invite you to set up a time to speak with me about your own career or marketing concerns.

I've been coaching lawyers for almost 30 years and I'm happy to do a free 30 minute consultation. You could sign up on my website at seclar.com. On my website, you could also find links to more episodes of Council to Council and get access to many free career marketing and leadership resources. In the meantime, thanks for listening. Did we miss anything?