Episode 176: Redefining Success and Happiness for Lawyers: Insights from Paul Karvanis

Stephen Seckler (00:03.55)
Welcome back everybody. Just a reminder that if you are listening to Council to Council on one of the audio podcast platforms like Spotify or Apple Podcasts, you can also find us now on YouTube. If you're watching us on YouTube, it's nice to have you here.

What does it really mean to be a successful lawyer? And is that the same thing as being a happy lawyer? The legal profession has long rewarded achievement, status, and endurance, yet we continue to see high levels of burnout, dissatisfaction, and mental health challenges. Many lawyers find themselves chasing milestones, partnership, compensation, recognition, only to discover that reaching them doesn't necessarily bring the satisfaction they expected.

Today's conversation explores what sustainable success actually looks like, how lawyers can avoid some of the common traps of the profession, and what both junior and senior lawyers can do to build careers that are not only successful, but aligned and energizing. My guest today is Paul Carvanis, a former large firm attorney who turned coach, speaker, and author. After 12 years in private practice in-house and the public sector, Paul shifted his focus to helping lawyers.

and other high performing professionals build careers that combine high performance with happiness. He is the founder of Leader Rising and the creator of the Happy Lawyer Project, where he interviewed more than 100 lawyers to understand what separates them who thrive from those who burn out.

Stephen Seckler (01:42.461)
Jelko, I'm going to repeat that last sentence. He is the founder of Leader Rising and the creator of the Happy Lawyer Project, where he interviewed more than 100 lawyers to understand what separates those who thrive from those who burn out. His findings became the foundation for his book, The Happy Lawyer. More recently, he's explored early career success in the Successful Associate, drawing on interviews with firm leaders to map out what it really takes.

to succeed and ultimately make partner. Paul, welcome to the show.

Paul Karvanis (02:15.384)
Thank you so much for having me.

Stephen Seckler (02:18.238)
Paul, why don't you tell us a little bit about what you do?

Paul Karvanis (02:22.478)
I am a coach and a speaker and an author. I as you know, I practiced for quite a while. my days these days are I'd say half coaching, and then the other half is either talking with people or speaking or working on my next project, which maybe you'll hear about in a few months.

Stephen Seckler (02:46.874)
wow, you got me curious now. All right, we'll have to do a follow up podcast interview. When did you make the shift away from practicing law?

Paul Karvanis (02:58.034)
I started I hung up my shingle as a coach in twenty eighteen. which is interesting actually. I thought that so I was miserable as a lawyer. we were ha pregnant with our first child. I didn't even know the child's sex, but I already had plans for how I was gonna teach them about finances so they had a strong financial foundation and didn't feel trapped, and also how I was gonna teach them to take risks, maybe they were gonna be an entrepreneur.

And I realized this has nothing to do with the kid. It has everything to do with me. The kid wasn't born. I didn't know their sex. And I was trying to live vicariously through them. So when I realized that, I was like, okay, well, I've got to do something about my unhappiness. What would I rather do instead of law? Because for me, law had always been my second choice. Because I never knew what my first choice was. So when I started my coaching, I was actually testing an assumption as to whether I would like

being a therapist. And it turns out I like coaching so much I never ended up pivoting to therapy, I just stayed a coach. And that was twenty eighteen.

Stephen Seckler (04:00.862)
Okay.

Okay, now you have parents who are lawyers, so how did that impact your your career choices?

Paul Karvanis (04:06.27)
Yeah.

I I mean they never pushed me into it, but when you're looking around and you don't have a first choice, it's very easy to just see people like my parents were happy lawyers. And when I'm trying to decide what to do, I could do worse than choosing what they chose and being happy like them. Right? So

That was why it it did have an impact for sure, but it wasn't necessarily because they pressured me. It was more because that was the world I was in. That was what I understood.

Stephen Seckler (04:42.994)
What is the Happy Lawyer project?

Paul Karvanis (04:47.468)
So sometime after I started coaching, I realized actually this might have been mid-pandemic. So I was practicing part-time as a lawyer, and I'd had my coaching business for about three or four years by this point. And I realized that

I n though I had been miserable, there were plenty of happy lawyers. And I started wondering what they were doing and thinking differently than what I was, with the ultimate aim not of trying to do an autopsy and figure out what went wrong, but rather trying to figure out how we can move the needle. Like it wa it was a very practical focus. What can we do differently to be happier?

Stephen Seckler (05:38.1)
Paul, you you've said that many lawyers are chasing success but not necessarily fulfillment. What do you think most lawyers get wrong about what success is supposed to look like?

Paul Karvanis (05:54.094)
I think most people, not just lawyers, forget that success is deeply personal. So we are given definitions of success, you know, a lot of money, great title, fancy accoutrement, like a big house and a nice car, a nice watch, blah blah blah blah. And then we just sort of assume that as the truth and proceed forward.

But the reality is that while that will be true for some, it will not be true for others. And so many of us just operate on default in part because it is safer to

So the little side analogy I've i in hockey when you're chasing a game at the end, you'll often pull your goalie and throw an extra player on the ice. And when I was younger and watching, the teams would wait until the last minute or so to do it. And then at some point there was some data that showed that in fact, given the advantage of the extra player, you needed more than a minute.

Then in fact, you should probably be pulling your goalie a whole lot earlier, like maybe around the four minutes to go mark. But that would be way too scary, right? Because if you got it, great, you'd be heralded as a great coach. But if you if you conceded a goal, which often ha often happens when you're playing with an empty net, everyone would be pointing fingers. It's pretty similar with us. It is easier to be.

to follow w what the accepted answer is and be wrong than it is to risk following your own answer and maybe being wrong. So a lot of people stick with what they know just because it feels so much safer.

Stephen Seckler (07:51.963)
one quick comment for anybody who's listening from the United States and the reference to hockey, while there are people and lots of people that play hockey here, Paul is actually speaking to me from Canada. So just just just making that clear. And then I just want to underscore what you said about risk. I mean, I I think that a lot of the issues that lawyers deal with are because we as a

Paul Karvanis (08:04.142)
Ha ha ha.

Stephen Seckler (08:17.51)
as a community of professionals tend to be risk averse and we get more risk averse by studying law because we spend our whole day figuring out what might go wrong. So I don't know if you have any further thoughts about that.

Paul Karvanis (08:31.022)
I agree with you completely that part of it is trained in us because we are rewarded for being risk averse and so it it incourages that behavior. Part of it might be self-selection. I am I'm curious around it, but I've not dug into it because it's I haven't figured out a reason that knowing that would be practical for me. So I've put my energy elsewhere. But I I am curious about it too.

Stephen Seckler (08:56.788)
Okay, one of the the phrases I I I saw in your book, which by the way it's a terrific book, I highly recommend it to everybody. And actually before we go on, where can people find your books?

Paul Karvanis (09:06.382)
Thank you, Steve. they're on Amazon. So if you search The Happy Lawyer or The Successful Associate, you will find it. it is the only Successful Associate book. There are actually a few other Happy Lawyer books. Mine's the one with the gold band on the cover. Also written by Paul Carvanis, but you'd be surprised how easy it is for people to miss that.

Stephen Seckler (09:22.706)
Okay.

Stephen Seckler (09:28.924)
Okay. And I actually I actually listened to the audio version for the Happy Lawyer and you actually have a a great voice for for audio, so I c I commend. Exactly. That's what I always used to say about podcasting. And then I finally gave up on that and now I'm doing a YouTube version too. Okay. So in the book you talk about I'll be happy when that mindset and I really love that. So

Paul Karvanis (09:37.55)
Thank you. I I've got a great face for audio too.

Paul Karvanis (09:43.214)
Yeah.

Stephen Seckler (09:55.379)
Why is that so prevalent in the legal profession and why doesn't achieving those goals actually move the needle for many people?

Paul Karvanis (10:04.15)
So I would say this is prevalent so far beyond the legal profession. it is possibly just human nature until you see it. And what it is that you see, what what Steve's asking me about is the I'll be happy when. When you tell yourself, I'll be happy when I lose five pounds or ten pounds or twenty, I'll be happy when I get a

job in house or when I get a promotion or when I have a team reporting to me or when I get a new house or when I have a boyfriend or a girlfriend or a family.

th they're so common. one that I talk about in the book that is still here is I'll be happy when I qualify for and run the Boston Marathon. That's not that common, but it's still in my head. I wrote that book years ago and I still sometimes find myself thinking, like, okay, what training do I need to do to get to my BQ pace? That's the one thing that's missing. I was like, that's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. And so

What often not always, but what often happens is as we get to the goal, we realize, man, nothing's changed. And so what we usually do is we set a new goal, right? Like I talk in the book about Frank, who was a partner at a big full service firm, and he called me after making partner and was like, I'm not happy. I thought I would be, and I'm not. So it this is normal. I think.

to without getting too philosophical, it might have something to do with the difference between the journey and the destination. where we think it's the destination that's gonna make us happy and really, you know, life is a journey. The the only destination is one we all share, and that's dead somewhere.

Stephen Seckler (11:56.213)
Well, isn't part of it that part of the nature of becoming a lawyer, especially if you end up at an elite law firm, is that you've had to set very high goals, academic goals in particular, in order to get to that stage where you are

now working at the pinnacle of the profession. And I I realize many people listening to this may not be at large law firms and that's not to say that you're not doing great work or having a very successful career. But isn't part of it that the whole nature of becoming a lawyer requires a lot of achievement?

Paul Karvanis (12:32.812)
I I absolutely I think you're you're bang on that we get used to setting these goals, often audacious ones, and working hard and achieving them. And so then that becomes the way that we interact with the world. And it takes a big shift to give yourself permission to decouple your your pursuit

of your goals with your happiness. I'm not saying stop pursuing your goals. In fact, it is the pursuit of the goals that is often so satisfying. But don't think that you're going to be happy once you achieve them because most of the time that's just not true.

Stephen Seckler (13:16.862)
See, I invited Paul on because I knew he would agree with everything I had to say. So Absolutely. That's a challenge. I I once heard it said that to a lawyer any statement is an opportunity to start an argument. So we are like that. Okay. So why do you think lawyers are particularly vulnerable to stress, anxiety, and burnout?

Paul Karvanis (13:20.502)
I'm gonna have to disagree with the next thing.

Paul Karvanis (13:46.424)
that we're particularly vulnerable more than other groups, but we just happen to have a lot of it. And so you don't need to be vulnerable if you're if you are have too much of it. You don't need to be vulnerable to still succumb to it.

Right. So it's more about the individual and understanding their level of stress, also their level of resourcing, and for them to figure out like, okay, what do I have in the tank? What do I need to have in the tank? What do I want to have in the tank? And and how can I manage what's draining as well as what's refueling so that I've got an optimal mix. Right. The goal is not to avoid all drains.

Going to the gym takes energy. Being in a relationship takes energy. Doing your job takes energy. These are great things. So it's not to avoid what drains you, it's to make sure that your balance is right.

Stephen Seckler (14:39.623)
Okay.

So getting back to your book again, you suggest that instead of focusing on unhappy lawyers, we should study thriving lawyers. So what are one or two patterns that really stood out for you in the work that you did in doing all those interviews?

Paul Karvanis (14:57.97)
the biggest thing was the general approach, the how that they got happy. for background, I like to do things sequentially. I like to achieve things and move on. And I was hoping that happiness would be the same, that I could get happy and then move on and focus on other things. But that was not how it worked. Happy lawyers were aware and then they took action, and then that action

informed their awareness and then they took more action informed by that awareness. So it's like they were they reflected, they took a step and they did it all again. The awareness informs the action, the action informs the awareness, which informs the action, which informs the awareness. And so it's a constant loop. You don't actually get there. You never arrive.

Which which makes sense, right? So it it makes sense because, in a way, of how I defined happy. Because in the book, I'm not talking about happy as an emotion. It's not about when TFC finally are good and win, and it's been over half a decade since that happened. It's about being in your good life. Because if you are

If you are using your compass and you're using your north, your magnetic north as trying to feel happy all the time, the point of feelings is that they they are there to give us information and give us some motivation. They come and go.

That's what feelings do. That's what emotions do. And so if if you are basing your success on being able to sustain a single emotion and the absence of other emotions for the rest of your life, you're setting yourself up for failure.

Paul Karvanis (16:43.52)
So it was actually really important for me in this project to s to sit back and ask myself, what is magnetic north? What am I going to try and aim for? Because it is as you aim for that that you can start to tease apart w the patterns of what people are doing. And so the magnetic north for for this was in your good life well lived. Now, Steve's good life is going to look different than Paul's good life.

Right. And so un and then living it well will also look different. So it makes sense then that that awareness is critical to know what your good life is and then also to know how your action is moving you towards or away from it. And then also to know how it's changing over time. Because my good life ten years ago is different than my good life today and it'll be different in in another decade.

Stephen Seckler (17:32.19)
Well, as my late mother in law once said to me, life stage is a compelling force. And I I think a corollary to all this is that you can't really know what your future self will think or feel like. It's just not knowable. We can know and look backwards and see where we've come, but we can't really know how we're gonna feel when we get to a certain stage.

Paul Karvanis (17:50.094)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Stephen Seckler (17:52.307)
Okay, let's continue our talking. Cut that out, Jilko. Let's talk a little bit more about self awareness. if I'm not mistaken, you broke it down into perception, vision, and direction. Can you say a little bit more about that?

Paul Karvanis (18:08.418)
Yeah, I think that there's three critical elements. The first critical element of awareness or self-awareness is to understand what's actually going on. Right? I wrote self-awareness and it it is not just being aware of yourself, it's also aware of the world and your spot in it. And that is the first step. Do you actually see reality? Now

We can have a philosophical argument about whether there is a singular objective reality or not. And I'm honestly not gonna weigh in on what I think is the truth there. I think that there is for most of us a more objective reality than the one that we currently see. And the closer that we can see that objective reality, the better are the next two steps are gonna go.

The second step is having a vision. Well, what do you want? A goal basically, or a vision really is a is a picture of a collection of goals. So what do you want? Right? And then once you know where you're at and where you want to go, the third and final step of awareness is picking a direction. So it it it is much more tactical. Hey, how am I actually going to do this? What am I going to focus on next? And then once you have that direction, you take a step.

You take an action. And then that action changes your current reality, potentially changes your goals, and certainly changes the next direction you want it you ought to take. So it is a constant cycle.

Stephen Seckler (19:47.72)
You talk about health, community, self compassion. Can you talk about how those relate to what you were just talking about?

Paul Karvanis (19:56.131)
Yeah.

We've been talking about the cycle, right? Self-awareness to intentional action and back again. That's the cycle. That's how all the happy lawyers got happy. But it doesn't actually tell you what they took action on. And what I realized was the pattern of awareness and action was just the tip of the iceberg. When I actually looked at what they were doing, there were further patterns. The first one, and and I've organized them

two I think of as foundational pieces, and then as in like where you should probably start, all other things being equal. And those two, one is community, and by that I mean the people around you. Okay, so this is family, it's friends, it's your colleagues, it's also your your your tribes, your chosen affiliation groups. And in part, this is because

Jim, the the management consultant Jim Ron is often quoted as saying, you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. And if you if you leave behind the math of whether it's five or six, weighted average, who knows? and you just recognize the the truth underneath it, which is that who we are changes based on who we surround ourselves with. So when you adjust your community, you're not only changing

the world around you because these are the people around you, you're also changing who you are in that world. So if you're trying to be happy, man, sometimes all you need to do is adjust your community and every other change will go on autopilot. The second one is self-compassion. And I there are many lawyers, and I think I was one of them, who have a an amazing life, things are great, and they're still miserable. And it

Paul Karvanis (21:54.336)
In my view, is because they're missing this self compassionate piece. They're way too hard on themselves, they're making themselves miserable. And there's a way to have perspective and kindness. And actually, as a as a side note, I was very happy. So I I did the research. I was like, okay, well, what's part of self compassion? Well, it's not just about kindness, it's also understanding that like having perspective to understand that.

This is what life is like, you know, it's not always gonna be perfect. You're not or even if it is close to perfect, you're not always gonna feel like it's perfect. and then I did research into Kristen Neff's work and she's done I think she's one of the foremost authorities on self compassion. And I forget the words she used, but they mapped to kindness and perspective.

And her third element was awareness, which was already included in the model. So I breathed a sigh of relief to be like, Okay, good, my own work is echoing that of someone who's preeminent in this space.

Stephen Seckler (23:00.017)
Related to that, can you talk a little bit about overthinking or waiting for certainty or a guarantee?

Paul Karvanis (23:08.182)
It's actually really interesting you say related to that, because it could have been I almost did that. I almost waited to review all of the literature on happiness before I even started this project. Right. So and then I got advice from a successful friend because she's a a therap a former lawyer turned therapist, and I asked her, Hey, what should I read on positive psychology? She's she gave me a list and then she said, Or you can do what my supervisor

Told me, which is write first and read later. and it actually gave me such permission to feel like actually you can take action. It doesn't need to be perfect. Imperfect action now is often far better than perfect action later. I I put air quotes around the perfect. I don't know that anyone can hear them, but the idea being, look, this

perfection standard you think exists doesn't. So the real question is given that it doesn't, what are you gonna do?

Stephen Seckler (24:14.196)
Right. A client of mine made a comment to me that what you're talking about is related somewhat to Aristotle. So Aristotle talked about you don't have to be brave to act brave. If you act brave you become brave. And I don't know if you have any reaction to that and how it might relate to what you're talking about right now, but taking action before you're feeling it.

Paul Karvanis (24:40.371)
I would I would f my first reaction is that the Greeks are very wise.

Stephen Seckler (24:44.98)
Right, I forgot. You're Greek. Yeah.

Paul Karvanis (24:47.34)
Yeah. I I think I think it's spot on, right? Maybe not with everything, right? If you're injured and you act healthy, it's possible you could exacerbate your injury. But certainly with things like confidence, having the ability to get started is often what makes the difference. because we think that we need to feel a certain way.

begin when often it is beginning that gives us that feeling. It's yeah, it's so easy to get stuck in our head. And especially for those of us who are very good at thinking, it is even easier because we're so used to solving problems with our head. But not every problem not every problem is a nail, even if you love to use your hammer.

Stephen Seckler (25:41.95)
Okay, so why do so many lawyers wait until things get really bad before making change instead of acting earlier?

Paul Karvanis (25:49.234)
change is hard. Right? It's the bottom line. It it can feel really hard. And so we put it off. And often

I mean, these people often don't reach out to me to be coached. Usually we need to act from either inspiration or desperation. And people who are acting always wish they'd acted from inspiration, but the reality is that desperation may actually be a more powerful force. And it is what it is. Like in a way, this is an element that you can have some self compassion and perspective about to realize, like, look, this is not just you. This is an element of the human condition.

where we're often not willing to take any action until things get bad.

Stephen Seckler (26:38.216)
I don't remember if this was which of your books this was in. I think it was in The Successful Lawyer, but you talk about whether lawyers need to do a ninety eight percent job on everything and how that relates to perfectionism and a profession that has high standards. So I which book was that in? And can you talk about that a little bit?

Paul Karvanis (26:56.406)
Yeah, my guess is it's probably more the first book because I think I tried to avoid talking about that in the second one because w as I was so I interviewed almost fifty managing partners, regular partners, department heads, chief pupil officers, talent directors, et cetera. And firms have different standards of perfection. There are some firms where if something goes out of the door with a few typos in it, they're mortified.

And there are other firms where they don't give a shit. Is the client happy? Was the stuff on time? Is it blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? So I actually tried to avoid talking about perfectionism, just given that, you know, it will be if you are content leaving typos in the work, it's gonna preclude a number of different firms because some firms will not find that acceptable. And so perfectionism, actually, I guess

If we take a step back and t and think about perfectionism, we often think of it as the desire to be perfect.

But really it's a little closer to why you're trying to have things be perfect. And usually it's to avoid criticism.

I'm not explaining it super well. Brene Brown talks about in one of her books where she's like, we think perfectionism is what's gonna keep us safe. It's the armor, but really it's that weight of that armor that's stopping us from flying. So I think that it's less about figuring out the quality that you need to aim for, which is gonna vary firm by firm and department area by department, and more thinking about why you're

Paul Karvanis (28:47.81)
you're chasing that standard and what it feels like to you to do so. If that makes sense.

Stephen Seckler (28:53.864)
Mm-hmm. Okay, so just to kind of wrap up your first book, The Happy Lawyer, what's a small practical example of an intentional action that a lawyer could take this week to start shifting things in a better direction? In in other words, what's a small step a lawyer can take?

Paul Karvanis (29:12.142)
Steve, I love that your question is about taking action because so often people ignore that. Like even as we talk about taking action, they're thinking, right, I will, I just need to learn one more thing. But the reality is that you know, listening to this podcast and then thinking through how it applies to your own life is already likely an exercise in self-awareness for you. I will give you an example

of an intentional action for me. Like I want to be a good dad and I often lose my patience. And so an intentional action at least once a week is apologizing to my kids because I've lost my patience. You know, it can be that little. It can it could also be making sure to go to the gym or doing a breath work session because I notice that I'm feeling anxious and that there's a part of me that doesn't want to feel anxious in that moment instead of

sitting with it and releasing it, but that's a totally different interview.

Stephen Seckler (30:14.868)
Okay. All right. Parenting for lawyer parenting for lawyers. That'll be episode a hundred and seventy-eight.

Paul Karvanis (30:17.826)
So to to put a bow on it then though, the the specific action needs to be customized to to an individual's idiosyncratic life, recognizing though that it doesn't need to be big. So you ask yourself, Hey, where am I where's their friction that I don't like in my life right now?

What does that look like? Okay, it would be a change of this. I work too often after hours. Okay. That I would like to work less in the evenings. And then you ask yourself, okay, well, what's if I shrink that down to the tiniest possible step, what does that look like? And that will be a different answer for different people, right? For some people, it might be about being more proactive. Hey, let me proactively look at my list and try and get things done in advance.

For other people, they don't have that type of control. So then it might be, look, I know that I'm gonna need to work as late as possible to get everything done. So let me try and carve out a bit of time in the evening before I sit down to do work so that at least I feel like I have a life too. I think that the action is gonna depend on the individual.

Stephen Seckler (31:37.298)
Okay, let's shift quickly as we're getting near the end to your book, The Successful Lawyer. So you say that many associates fail not because of lack of ability, but because they don't understand the unwritten rules. What are some of those rules that lawyers miss?

Paul Karvanis (31:55.981)
Well, what's interesting, I'm I'm but to give an example, and I think this varies generation by generation. I think in my generation, sixteen years ago, most of us knew this. I'm not sure that all juniors know it now, which is hey, once you've been staffed on a file, it's your file. If it comes back, it's still your file. And if you are trying to say it's not my file, it's the senior associate's file or the partner's file, in a way you're showing them that you're not taking ownership over it.

So if you want them to feel like you feel a sense of ownership, you need to act like it. Right? So that is one example. It's a very simple rule. It's just like, hey, if you've been stapped staffed, it's now your problem. but not everyone acts that way. Not everyone realizes it.

Stephen Seckler (32:48.5)
Okay, I think the way you framed it, I don't know if this is exactly the same concept, but you talked about taking work off a partner's plate. It's not just taking the work off the partner's plate, it's taking it off their mind. So what is the difference?

Paul Karvanis (33:00.642)
Right. Well, when you're taking it off their plate, you are expecting to be given a list and instructions and you're gonna do the list and when it's done, you're gonna get an updated list and you're gonna keep going. So in other words, the partner needs to be constantly thinking about the steps they need to get done, how you're doing on it, et cetera, et cetera. When you're taking work off their mind, it's just that. They don't need to think about it. They get to trust that it's actually happening. Now, it's probably not gonna be that way immediately.

Because that trust needs to be there. And that trust gets built up over time through successful reps or through great recommendations from other people. Like if it may be the first time you're working with this partner, but if you've come highly recommended from other partners, they're much more likely to extend that trust to you and give you the benefit of the doubt. So I think when you're when you're taking work off of someone's mind, they they know you've got it. And there's two parts of ownership.

I think one is taking initiative and the other one's taking responsibility. So earlier when I was saying it's your file once you've been staffed, it it goes to the taking responsibility part as opposed to the taking initiative. So taking work off of a partner's mind is getting all of it right. And one aspect of that is you treat it like yours. So if you are now too busy now that this file has come back, then

you're finding a solution. You're trying to find someone else who can do it or you're doing something else. But it is your problem. And if you own that problem, they're going to see it and feel it. And it's going to make a difference in your relationship with them and in the work that they're going to give you and in the leash that they're going to allow.

Stephen Seckler (34:42.29)
You make a distinction between correct work and useful work. So what is the difference? Why does it matter? And is AI impacting this and how? So f quite a loaded question there, but

Paul Karvanis (34:53.197)
Correct work is work that's right. Useful work is work that is both correct and useful. So useful work is always correct, because incorrect work is not useful, but correct work is not always useful. And I think a simple to understand example is someone who gets asked a research question and sends back a 15-page memo. That could be totally correct work.

But it's also not super useful to the person receiving it. Likely, a far more useful product would be that 15-page memo with a one-page executive summary, with a draft email that they can then forward on summarizing the things and attaching the work to whoever it needs to be provided to. Now all of a sudden you've thought through how that work is going to be used and you've ensured that the work you've created does as much of that as possible.

Also, if you're in the middle of writing a fifteen page memo, you are the one best placed to write that cover email. So it it should be you anyway, apart from making the your senior's life more easy.

Does that answer it?

Stephen Seckler (36:12.596)
At some point yeah. yes, thank you. So at some point associates need to shift from employee thinking to owner thinking. When should that happen and how does that show up?

Paul Karvanis (36:28.658)
ideally as soon as possible. And if you're associate and you're listening to this, it's probably not too late. The earlier the better. And so if you can switch it, great. what's the difference between the two?

In a way, the employee thinking is the check the box thinking. And as I'm taking work off of someone's plate, it's their job to give me the work to do. And I'm gonna do it and then I'm gonna go and everything is their problem. And the owner thinking is someone who takes ownership, who thinks, okay, if this were my business, if my client's business were my business, and then when you if you're able to approach your work like both your firm and your client are actually yours.

You're gonna think about it differently. You're gonna look for different solutions. You're gonna try to be creative when it seems like there's problems in the first place. You are also gonna apply that lens to how you're building your practice independent of each file, in terms of the relationships you're building, the specific type of work you're focusing on. So it's in a way like to tie the two things together. We were talking earlier about vision. When you're an employee.

you're you are outsourcing that vision and when you are an owner you are you are insourcing it you're doing it and if if it's not your business because it's the client's business you're at least taking their vision and using that as the vision that you then use as the North Star for your work with that client.

Stephen Seckler (38:12.543)
Okay, great. So if a lawyer takes one thing away from this conversation, what would you want it to be?

Paul Karvanis (38:20.062)
Paul Karvanis (38:23.874)
We haven't gotten to it in in big depth, but I think that

If you zoom out, you can look at all the first-year associates. You can look at the best first-year associate. And if you imagine that they did not change at all, four years later, are they a good fourth year associate? Probably not. Doesn't matter how good you are at the start. And I think that so many of us.

look at how we are and then extrapolate from there, but we need to realize that how good we are at the start is not nearly as important as how good we are at improving. So if any lawyer, not I mean the book is written for associates, the successful associate. But if any lawyer were to take this message away, that is you need to be constantly improving. And hell, you probably want to be constantly improving.

Because growth is such a satisfying thing. Right. One of the other patterns from the first book was the pursuit of excellence. That the happy lawyers in general were all pursuing excellence and trying to get as good as po as possible. It overlays perfectly with this, which is, hey man, constantly try get better. You you will if you ever treat excellence as someplace you've hit, then you're gonna stop searching.

And the reality is it's a bit of a moving target and so embrace that.

Paul Karvanis (39:59.734)
think there was something in the intro, I forget exactly how you worded it, but about is it possible to be both successful and happy? And what I've found actually is that it's actually much easier to be happy if you've been successful. That that the unsuccessful lawyers are often unhappy for different reasons. Successful ones can also be unhappy, but it really helps when you have that feeling of agency

and control and that pursuit of trying to be better, that helps on all fronts.

Stephen Seckler (40:37.98)
Okay. So final question that I ask all my guests. What's one podcast stri streaming television series or book that you'd recommend? And this is something purely for enjoyment.

Paul Karvanis (40:49.302)
So I I accidentally, Steve told me this was gonna be the question I accidentally let slip to in my answer, which is Ted Lasso. I love I've come to it late. I'm just watching the third season right now. I love it. but I got the impression he wanted a surprise. So I came up with something new. That is, my son's about nine, and I was looking into computer games to let him play. And I was trying to figure out if Minecraft was good or not. And so I found a website that said, look, this is the dangerous part.

But it's easy to avoid it. And look, do yourself a favor. If you're gonna let your kids play, play with them. And I thought, let me try that. And honestly, it was pretty satisfying. So for the last few months, I've been sitting down occasionally with my kid, and we've been mining and fighting creepers and ender dragons and whatnot. And it's been pretty satisfying.

Stephen Seckler (41:41.49)
All right. Well, thanks for those recommendations. And I I've never played Minecraft, but I love Ted Lasso, so I will second your first recommendation. Paul, this has been a great conversation. Thanks so much for for joining us. If anyone in our audience has follow up questions, wants to get your book, read more about you, how can they reach you?

Paul Karvanis (41:51.086)
Good.

Paul Karvanis (42:05.484)
The books are on Amazon. Once again, it's the Happy Lawyer and the Successful Associate. You can find me on LinkedIn. That's pretty much the only social media where I'm active. You can also, if you want to contact me directly, there is a contact form on my website, which is leaderrising.com. And I love to hear about this stuff. So if you have thoughts or opinions or questions or hot takes, send them my way.

Stephen Seckler (42:37.108)
All right, Paul. I I look forward to continuing our conversation and it was it was great having you.

Paul Karvanis (42:42.798)
Thank you. The the pleasure was mine.

Stephen Seckler (42:46.856)
I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please tell others and rate us on iTunes or your favorite podcast app and share it with someone who you think might be interested. And if you're watching on YouTube, please hit the subscribe button. It will help others find us. If you'd like to continue the conversation, I welcome your inquiries and invite you to set up a time to speak with me about your own career or marketing concerns. I've been coaching lawyers for almost 30 years and I'm happy to do a free 30-minute consultation. You could sign up on my website at seckler.com.

On my website, you could also find links to more episodes of Council to Council and get access to many free career marketing and leadership resources. In the meantime, thanks for listening.