Episode 167: How to Transition From Litigation to Mediation

Stephen Seckler (00:02.672)
Welcome back everybody. We've been on hiatus since early November because we've been working on some improvements. In particular with this episode, I'm pleased to announce that Council to Council is now available on YouTube. And perhaps you're watching us on YouTube. If you're not, I invite you to go there. I'm excited to continue bringing you interesting guests in 2026. We have a long list of lawyers who are going to talk to you about their careers, consultants who have things to say about where the profession is heading.

And I'm very pleased to announce that after eight years, I finally have somebody helping me with production. Welcome, Jelko Tomic. We are so glad to have you on the team. In today's episode, I'm heading back to my roots to speak with an old law school friend of mine, Oran Kaufman. Oran is the owner of Amherst Mediation Services in Amherst, Massachusetts. I invited Oran to speak about his legal career and how he transitioned into mediation.

He and I will be discussing Oran's journey and offer a few tips for anyone thinking about doing some mediation. Oran is past president of the Massachusetts Council on Family Mediation. He is also an adjunct faculty member at Western New England College of Law. Mediation is something that I got very interested in after graduating from law school. In 1990, I attended my first mediation training and started to appreciate the power of listening.

The skills I began to develop then have become the foundation of everything I do as a coach. And so I thought it would be great to have Oran speak about his experience of transitioning from family law to mediation.

Stephen Seckler (01:46.094)
And so I thought it would be great to have Oran speak about his experience of transitioning from family law to mediation. Welcome to Council to Council, Oran.

Oran Kaufman (01:55.404)
Hey, it's great to be here, Steve.

Stephen Seckler (01:58.375)
So can we start by?

Stephen Seckler (02:03.568)
Can you start by giving us a brief overview of your practice? What do you do and who are your clients right now?

Oran Kaufman (02:11.202)
My practice is almost exclusively family mediation. I'd say it's about 95 % family mediation, mostly divorces, some never married parents, some family disputes. just had somebody call me recently for a dispute between themselves and the daughter of their grandchild who's not their child.

And then I represent an agency that does protective work for elders. So those involve a lot of cases involving guardianship and conservatorships for elders who have dementia and lack capacity.

Stephen Seckler (02:52.55)
Let's go back a bit. What did your career look like coming out of Northeastern law and how did you end up in family law?

Oran Kaufman (03:01.358)
I love following that path. It came out of Northeastern. did a year clerkship with the Superior Court, which is sort of the mid-tier court in Massachusetts, and then quickly decided that I wanted to stay in Western Massachusetts, which is where the clerkship was. Ended up at a small general practice law firm in Amherst, Massachusetts, with one partner who did primarily family law, though at the time I was doing family law, I doing collections law, general contract.

and including personal injury law, and then veered towards doing primarily family law, and then proceeded on my path to mediation, which I'm sure I'll talk about.

Stephen Seckler (03:42.532)
What did you like and what was harder for you about family law?

Oran Kaufman (03:50.008)
There's an old saying about family law. With criminal law, you see the worst people at their best. With family law, you see the best people at their worst. So it's a difficult area of law. People are kind of in a challenging situation. I like helping them on various levels, on legal level, emotional level, giving them support, giving them counsel. It's just felt very rewarding, to me more rewarding than just helping people get money.

through like a personal injury lawsuit. So it wasn't something I was particularly looking to do, but just happened to fall into a firm where that was the focus of the practice.

Stephen Seckler (04:33.392)
Why did you decide to go to Northeastern?

Oran Kaufman (04:39.253)
I, at the time I was working for Public Citizen Litigation Group, which is an arm of Ralph Nader, is essentially Ralph Nader's law firm. They were doing some amazing litigation that had nationwide impact. I was just their gopher. I was the administrative assistant with these high powered lawyers, all Harvard, Yale, creme de la creme. But I love the work that they were doing. They were doing public interest law.

I became interested in doing public interest law. Northeastern was one of the law schools that really had a huge focus of public interest law at the time. So decided to apply and was fortunate to be accepted to Northeastern. And that's how I ended up there.

Stephen Seckler (05:27.148)
still does. It's still very highly ranked. I'm proud to say as also a graduate of Northeastern.

Oran Kaufman (05:32.662)
Absolutely.

Stephen Seckler (05:35.79)
At some point in your career you began to feel a little bit like litigation might not be a great long-term fit. So when did that happen?

Oran Kaufman (05:50.094)
I'd say probably in the early 90s. I started working for what at the time was Burr's Fidnick Booth and Shepherd, doing it, as I said, general law, a lot of family law, but a lot of other things. I quickly realized that for me, litigation was not the path. I didn't enjoy it. It stressed me out. I stayed up at night. It just didn't kind of fit with my character.

I was fortunate to find a training for mediation in 1994. And my partners at the time were very supportive of my doing that. And I took the training and it immediately clicked. Like this is my path. And kind of started building a mediation practice and kind of never looked back.

Stephen Seckler (06:42.34)
Now, in family mediation, you have lawyers doing the mediation, but you also have mental health professionals, right?

Oran Kaufman (06:51.455)
Not always. mean, sometimes, you mean in terms of people who are actually doing the mediation? Yeah. I think you were talking about like a team approach where actually, interestingly, when I first started practicing, I started working with a woman who was a social worker. And we were sort of trying to do this approach where when clients hired us, they got a lawyer and a social worker. I would have kept doing that except that

Stephen Seckler (06:57.166)
Yeah, the mediators.

Oran Kaufman (07:20.799)
financially was pretty unrealistic because we were not able to charge our combined rates. That's just the business side of it. But yes, to answer your question, there are people who do family law who are psychologists, social workers, financial planners. You don't need to have a law degree to be a family lawyer. You certainly need to have the expertise and the knowledge about family law. But there are a lot of a lot of not a lot, but fair number of family lawyers.

who are not lawyers. Family mediators, I should say, who are not lawyers.

Stephen Seckler (07:55.57)
Can you describe a little bit about what the training was like?

Oran Kaufman (07:59.182)
So I did initially a 30, I think it was a 30, maybe 40 hour training. can't remember. I just remember it was a week long training and the week long training was really focusing on mediation skills, general mediation skills, active listening, reflecting, reframing, and then also plugging that into the family law realm. So learning about family law and how you apply the mediation skills to the family situation, which is...

kind of different than other areas of law.

Stephen Seckler (08:32.337)
the mediation is different or the areas, are you saying areas of law are different?

Oran Kaufman (08:37.325)
I think the mediation in the family law context is different than a lot of other mediation in other areas of law. For instance, personal injury cases, contract cases, those kinds of cases. The type of mediation that's done in those cases is very different than family law.

Stephen Seckler (08:56.039)
Can you describe what you think are some of the differences?

Oran Kaufman (09:01.577)
In family law, most of the mediators, at least in Massachusetts, I can't really speak for the rest of the country, although I've gone to lot of conferences that are national conferences, and I think this is true for most of the country. There's a form of mediation called facilitative mediation. In facilitative mediation, the mediator doesn't provide advice, doesn't give opinions about what they think should happen, is going to happen, what clients should do. They're really there to sort of help clients.

listen to each other, make sure that the clients get the information they need and help clients make an informed decision, but they don't put their thumb on the scale of what clients should do. In other types of mediation, like personal injury, contract, it's more what's called directive, evaluative is another form of, another name for it. And that's where essentially what tends to happen is there may be a meeting where everybody meets together.

And then people are broken out into different rooms and the mediator shuttles back and forth between the two parties. And in those individual meetings, the mediator may say, hey, think you've got some weakness in your case, or here's what I think, in an attempt to sort of start to bring them together. So it's much more a directive in terms of the mediator helping the parties move as opposed to in family law, it's a lot more.

It's not that you're taking a backseat, but you're just sort of listening to clients and helping them talk to each other.

Stephen Seckler (10:33.989)
mediation that you do, do people bring lawyers ever?

Oran Kaufman (10:37.869)
In my practice, generally not. Most of the clients and cases that I have, I'm dealing with just the parties. I encourage them to have lawyers because I can't give them legal advice. I encourage them both to speak with their own individual lawyers so that they can get that piece of information. But generally, I'm dealing with just the individuals. I do have cases that are...

what they're called is lawyer assisted mediation. And in those cases, you have clients coming in with their lawyers and that those kinds of take often start to take the form of the kind of cases that I just described for personal injury contract law where we often, I'll try to keep them in the room together, but often what ends up happening is that we'll meet together and then they'll go on to break out rooms and I'll start to shuttle back and forth.

Stephen Seckler (11:33.093)
How would you describe?

Oran Kaufman (11:33.101)
And those cases, by the way, the other thing about those cases is that I find is that those tend to come to me when they're really stuck. Like they're in litigation, things are getting close to a final trial, and they're sort of taking a final stab at resolving it through mediation.

Stephen Seckler (11:52.968)
How would you describe the difference between the work you did as an attorney and the work you do as a mediator?

Oran Kaufman (12:03.553)
I can think about a couple levels to answer that question. I could tell you that on a business level, it's much more difficult. It's much more difficult because in a general litigation or general practice firm, people are coming in, they may come in for real estate transaction, they may come in for a will, they may come in for personal injury, and then they're your client. If down the road, a year or two years later, they need some other legal work,

The goal obviously is that they're going to come back to you to help them with that, whether it's real estate or anything else. With mediation, it's the exact opposite. And thus, makes it much more challenging to have a mediation practice that's limited to mediation. And that is, you've got two people coming in, you help them with their resolution, and then you're basically conflicted from representing either of them in the future. mean, there's maybe some exceptions to that. But generally, you're

as opposed to attracting new clients, those two clients are not likely to be your future clients unless they come back for some modification of what you help them with. So from a business standpoint, it's very difficult. More challenging, I should say.

Stephen Seckler (13:15.697)
What about the skill? Okay, but what about the skills that you use as a mediator versus the skills that you used? Because you're no longer really practicing law for the most part, right?

Oran Kaufman (13:28.151)
Correct. It's not the practice of law and that's an area that you need to be careful of to not veer into practice of law within the context of mediation. You're basically a mediator who happens to be a lawyer. The skills are very different. In litigation, you tend to talk a lot. You tend to basically try to convince people of your position, whether it's to a court, whether it's to the other attorney. In mediation, it's much more focused on listening.

listening to the clients, picking up on nuances, trying to reflect back to them what you're hearing, trying to help them listen to each other. And I think it's harder, honestly. I think it's much harder than litigation in terms of the nuances that are involved in it.

Stephen Seckler (14:15.889)
I want to ask you some questions about collaborative law. But.

Stephen Seckler (14:23.387)
Yeah, I'd like to ask you.

Oran Kaufman (14:28.013)
Steve, can I add one more thing that I think might be of interest that is a difference and a little bit of a challenge, but you just have to be aware of it. With litigation, and this is the one piece that I sort of feel like sometimes I miss from litigation. With litigation, you're basically working with one client and you develop a relationship with them.

Stephen Seckler (14:35.975)
Sure.

Oran Kaufman (14:55.565)
a very strong relationship with them in the terms of like, they're counting on you to help them. with mediation, it's the exact opposite. You're almost putting up a wall with your clients because you want to maintain that neutrality. So you don't develop that sort of close relationship that you do with clients for whom you're representing as a lawyer. And that was a little bit of an adjustment for me.

Stephen Seckler (15:27.623)
Where does your business come from?

Oran Kaufman (15:31.146)
At this point in my career, most of my business, I would say, comes from referrals, either from previous clients or from attorneys, social workers, anybody within the sort of general field of divorce. Just like anybody else these days, I definitely get people from Google and the internet and people who are searching the internet for divorce mediators, family mediators.

Those are probably the two main areas.

Stephen Seckler (16:09.105)
computer just dinged. Can you answer that question again?

Oran Kaufman (16:11.469)
Yeah, most of my clients come from referrals. That is either from previous clients who are referring their friends, family, lawyers, social workers, other people who are involved in the divorce arena. And then obviously a chunk of it comes from the internet, people doing searches for divorce mediators or family mediators.

Stephen Seckler (16:36.975)
I know you also do collaborative law. Can you say a little something about what collaborative law is and its relationship with family mediation?

Oran Kaufman (16:47.019)
Yeah, collaborative law is of, I would say, in between litigation and mediation. It's not mediation, it's not litigation. With a collaborative case, and there's collaborative law that I say collaborative with a capital C, collaborative with a small c, and then collaborative with air quotes. Collaborative with a large c is the idea is that the parties are hiring two collaborative lawyers, that is lawyers who have taken

training to be collaborative lawyers and they sign a contract and among other things the contracts say if we're going to hire experts we're going to hire joint experts not dueling experts. They also agree that they're not going to go to court either for temporary orders or for any kind of order from the court and then finally they agree that if either party does decide to go to court both lawyers have to get out of the process so there's a huge disincentive for people

to go to court because it means they have to start all over again. And I think that's a hallmark of collaborative law that really makes it work. When I refer to collaborative with a small c, it's sometimes you'll find somebody who will say, well, I'll agree to do the collaborative law process, but if they go to court, I want to stay in the case. And I find that those cases tend to not work because that disincentive goes away. And then there's collaborative with air quotes, which is people who say, yeah, I'll be collaborative, but it's really not.

It's really just like litigation in the guise of collateral.

Stephen Seckler (18:20.805)
You've done a lot of mediation training yourself. What do you think makes somebody well suited to being a mediator and who might want to think twice about becoming a mediator?

Oran Kaufman (18:32.769)
Yeah. I hate to say, but I think that there are definitely people out there who are conflict avoidant. I'm not saying that makes you a good mediator, but I'm saying if you're conflict avoidant, you may want to reconsider whether you want to be a litigator for sure. In terms of the positive qualities that make somebody a good mediator, I think it's being a good listener is at the top.

being afraid of being quiet. is, silence is a huge tool for mediators. There are some people who just don't have the ability to be quiet. They just need to hear their voice. That tends to take away from their success and their efficacy as mediators. And I could tell you that's something that has taken me years and years and years to develop.

the ability to not feel like I have to fill the airspace with my voice if people are being.

Stephen Seckler (19:32.903)
Where do think that comes from? Why do you think you feel that way? Why do you think we as lawyers have a tendency to want to fill the airspace?

Oran Kaufman (19:43.224)
There's one obvious thing for me, which is I think we're afraid that if clients are hiring us and paying us a lot of money per hour, at least this is, I can just speak from my personal experience. I know that I started thinking, wow, they're gonna start thinking, why am I paying this guy all this money per hour for him to just sit there and not say anything, honestly. Exactly.

Stephen Seckler (20:04.775)
Ha

Stephen Seckler (20:08.219)
Doesn't this bonehead know anything?

Oran Kaufman (20:11.145)
Exactly. It's like, why are we paying this guy? We don't need this. So I think fighting that impulse, because I think silence is a huge, huge tool. But I think we have to fight that impulse to feel like they're going to think I'm not doing anything.

Stephen Seckler (20:30.821)
I've been thinking about listening for decades now and my own thinking of it has continued to evolve. I I started out getting trained in mediation, as I said in the opening in 1990, and now I do coaching. The skillset really is very similar. I'm still working on being a better listener, but where I've landed is that as a mediator, you want to be a great listener, same thing as a coach. You don't want to fill in all the empty space.

I think that actually that makes for good lawyering also. Do you have any thoughts about?

Oran Kaufman (21:08.075)
Absolutely. mean, I think you have to understand and know your client. have to know the story. You have to be curious. You have to listen to what they're saying to you, because otherwise you're going to have an unhappy client. So there's no question that listening is an important tool for lawyers as well as mediators. think the problem with lawyers, litigators often just

tend to feel like they know the solution and they're going to get you that solution. And they may sort of give listening to the client a little bit of a short shrift. It just depends on the relationship to it.

Stephen Seckler (21:46.792)
also think that when you're talking to a tribunal or a judge, the adage, know, if you have the law, pound the law, if you have the facts, pound the facts, if you don't have either, pound the table. And I used to think that, well, really, the person who is able to be a good listener and be more reasonable gets what they want. But I don't know that I believe that anymore. I do think that being aggressive can actually

get results that might not have been achieved. don't know in the long run that it makes everybody happier, but in terms of maybe increasing the dollar amount of the settlement or getting the jury to award more dollars or whatever, I do think it actually works. I don't know if you have any thoughts about that.

Oran Kaufman (22:33.837)
I think it works sometimes. I don't think it's the hallmark of being a good litigator. I think the hallmark of being a good litigator is somebody who gets the point across in an understated way.

I think judges appreciate that. I suspect that judges don't love people who are yellers and screamers and pounding the table and repeating the same thing over and over again in the hope that somebody will eventually hear it. So I think for me, a good litigator is somebody who gets their point across in an understated way and nuanced.

Stephen Seckler (23:16.999)
Just to be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you. just, over the course of my professional life, I've come to the conclusion that it isn't always a recipe for failure when a lawyer does do that, unfortunately.

Oran Kaufman (23:31.277)
I agree with you. And I would add the unfortunate, because that's not the approach that I would choose.

Stephen Seckler (23:40.699)
Oran, we're talking here about mediation. You've had this alternative legal career. You're now pretty much just doing mediation. If somebody's thinking about an alternative career, what are some of the things they should be thinking about? And I'm speaking more broadly, not just about becoming a mediator, but from stepping aside from the more traditional practice of law. What would you say to that person if they were here asking you that question?

Oran Kaufman (24:08.855)
Yeah. I would say start with, start with know thyself, like know what, what, what makes you tick. What, what do you like? What do you not like? If you, if you're in a career where you're stressed and you're not happy and you're just not liking what you do, then seek out alternatives. mean, for me, mediation was really a path that, that, that I quickly found out.

meshed a lot more with my personality in the litigation. an alternative career of mediation is a wonderful way for somebody who's in law school and realize, and by the way, there's obviously other things that somebody can do with a law degree other than litigate, mean, contracts and so forth. But...

Just really delve into what's your personality, what do you like, what you do not like. I feel like my quality of life changed dramatically when I decided to become a mediator. I feel like my stress level went down. Maybe I didn't make as much money as I would have as a litigator. For me, that was worth it in terms of my quality of life. And I would say to anybody considering an alternative career, you've got to do that balance. And it's all about a balance.

Stephen Seckler (25:34.054)
getting near the end here. How does somebody get started as a mediator? Can you do it as a side hustle? Do you have to stop practicing law altogether?

Oran Kaufman (25:45.281)
That's a really good question. And again, we get to that balance question. One of the, cause I teach law students and sometimes I have law students who are really clear from the beginning that they want to do mediation. Sometimes I've lost students who maybe want to just have it as a, as a little, like you said, either a side hustle or just a tool in their tool bag. Obviously the advantage of having some litigation experience is that then you've got the credibility of selling to clients. Hey, look, I've been to the dark side.

I know what that looks like. I know what trial looks like. You don't want to go there or you may want to reconsider whether you want to go there. So they have that experience and they have that credibility. On the other hand, do you want to spend five, six, seven years being a litigator and not liking it just so you can do that to then switch to mediation? So I think you have to make that decision for yourself. I think there's advantages to having the litigation experience. On the other hand,

If you're somebody who knows from day one that you want to go into mediation, then great, you could start from day one. You might need to supplement that with some other form of income. It doesn't have to be litigation. It could be helping people draft agreements. It could be doing trusts in the states. It could be doing wills, et cetera, because I think it's hard to get that volume with just being a mediator.

Stephen Seckler (27:08.08)
Okay, so last question. How would you say mediation has changed in the course of your career?

Oran Kaufman (27:15.35)
For me personally, the main thing is that there are a lot more people doing it. When I was in law school, I don't even remember, I don't even remember you might remember if there was even a mediation course offered. I certainly didn't take it. Yeah, yeah. So when I started mediating, was maybe one or two other people doing it. Now there are, I live in a fairly small area, but there are just about every lawyer is also saying that they're now mediator, whether they've done.

Stephen Seckler (27:26.694)
Not at Northeastern, I don't think so.

Oran Kaufman (27:45.161)
full training, whether they haven't done a full training, whether it's just one or two cases a year. from a professional and business standpoint, there's a lot more competition, a lot more people doing it. There still are very few people who do it exclusively. I mean, I'd say I'm one of a handful of lawyers around here who do it exclusively. But that's changed. So it's become more accepted. Courts in Massachusetts have not yet made mandatory mediation a thing. That is, there many states where before

You go to trial, the court will require you to do a mediation with the exception of some pilot programs, including the one that I'm involved in locally, which is, think, one of the few in the state and the family court. Mandatory mediation is not happening in Massachusetts. I think that's going to happen. And I think when that happens, even more lawyers are going to start doing mediation.

Stephen Seckler (28:38.183)
Okay, and then finally, virtual platforms. How has that impacted your mediation practice?

Oran Kaufman (28:44.972)
That's been huge. I didn't start doing anything by zoom virtually until the pandemic, like, like many people since the pandemic. I'd say my practice at this point is still probably about 90 % zoom. Some people want to come in and insist on coming in and that's great. I still have a physical office. I love meeting people in person, but for the obvious reasons for some people meeting by zoom is just.

a lot more efficient. Sometimes maybe they just don't want to be in the same room. For me, from a business standpoint, it's been a huge boon because it means that I can offer my services to people throughout the state. Whereas previously, I'd say if it was going to take more than an hour to get to my office, that was often an impediment to my getting them as clients. Now I basically can offer my services to anybody around the state.

including where I live in the western part of the state.

Oran Kaufman (29:51.06)
the cost for lawyers or at least the hourly rates are much lower than in the eastern part of the state. So I can offer my services to somebody in the eastern part of the states for a good value for them.

Stephen Seckler (30:03.503)
Okay, last question that I ask all my guests. What's one podcast, streaming series or book you'd recommend? And this is purely for enjoyment.

Oran Kaufman (30:13.43)
Huh, okay, it's gonna be hard to just say one, but, let's see, podcast, I'm gonna give you three. Is that okay? All right. There's a podcast called Against the Rules by Michael Lewis. He's the guy who wrote Moneyball, and he's got one in particular that goes into the sports world, the coaching, refereeing, the, anyway, it's great.

Stephen Seckler (30:21.99)
Okay, sure.

Oran Kaufman (30:42.244)
He's wonderful author, good podcaster. also love, there's a podcast by Jonathan Goldstein called Heavyweight. And then I listen to The Daily almost every day, which is probably my go-to. Streaming, again, my God. I see so many shows these days.

Stephen Seckler (31:02.243)
Aron, Aron, this is going on way too long. Let's answer the question. Start from the beginning. Let me ask the question. Let me ask the question again. Don't give me 10 answers. Give me one answer. Okay, Shilko, we're deleting that last answer. Okay.

Oran Kaufman (31:04.768)
Okay, the pit. The pit. Okay, ask the question again. All right, I'm gonna give you one. Okay.

Oran Kaufman (31:19.018)
Yeah.

Stephen Seckler (31:23.503)
Or on last question that I ask all my guests, what's one podcast streaming series or book that you'd recommend? And this is purely for enjoyment.

Oran Kaufman (31:31.244)
Okay, podcast, Against the Rules by Michael Lewis. Book.

Stephen Seckler (31:38.681)
No, no, no, no, no, just one of those three categories. You don't have to. Yeah, just pick one of them. OK, we'll delete that question again. Another blooper. OK. Or on last question that I like to ask all my guests, what's one podcast, streaming series or book you'd recommend? And this is something purely for enjoyment.

Oran Kaufman (31:42.167)
any of those.

Okay.

Oran Kaufman (32:00.043)
Against the Rules by Michael Lewis Podcast.

Stephen Seckler (32:04.918)
okay, and why?

Oran Kaufman (32:07.244)
He's a great writer and I love his approach in this podcast to the area of sports but from every perspective from the coach from this from the fan from the athlete Etc. Yeah

Stephen Seckler (32:21.872)
Okay, great.

Aron, this has been a great conversation. It's so nice for me to, know, we met I think on one of the first days of law school 40 years ago. So it's just so great to have you on. And thank you so much for joining. Let me start that over again.

Aron, this has been a great conversation to me. It's like a circle of life thing. You were one of the first people I met 40 years ago when we started at Northeastern. So thanks so much for for joining me. If anyone in our audience has follow up questions about mediation or anything else, how can they reach you?

Oran Kaufman (33:01.632)
You could find me on my website, or on kaufman.com or amherstmediators.com. can also, and my contact information is there as well.

Stephen Seckler (33:11.803)
Great. I hope you enjoyed the episode. If you did, please tell others or rate us on iTunes.

I hope you enjoyed this episode. you did, please tell others and rate us on iTunes, your favorite podcast app or like us on YouTube. If you'd like to continue the conversation, I welcome your inquiries and invite you to set up a time to speak with me about your own career or marketing concerns. I've been coaching lawyers for over 25 years and I'm happy to do a free 30 minute consultation. You could sign up on my website at secler.com. That's S-E-C-K-L-E-R.com.

On my website, you'll also find more episodes of Council to Council and get access to many free career marketing and leadership resources. In the meantime, thanks for listening.

Oran Kaufman (34:01.334)
Thanks, Steve.

Stephen Seckler (34:02.841)
Okay, so did we miss anything?

Stephen Seckler (34:08.135)
No, no, no, I mean, it's just if there's anything glaring, you don't have to.

Oran Kaufman (34:11.038)
It was, yeah, I mean, it was, it's funny. I just went in sort of different directions than last time, but it's fine.

Stephen Seckler (34:16.09)
Yeah, no, I thought it was much better actually personally. I don't know. Anyway, I'm going to hit the stop button unless there's anything else that you wanted to add. No. Okay. I'm hitting the stop.