Episode 173: How Do You Manage a Legal Career and an Aging Parent?

Stephen Seckler (00:03.672)
Welcome back everybody. Just a reminder that if you're listening to Council to Council on one of the audio podcast platforms like Spotify or Apple podcast, you could also find us now on YouTube. If you're watching us on YouTube, it's nice to have you here. On this podcast, we generally focus on marketing, other aspects of the legal profession, and on finding more creator satisfaction in your career.

On this podcast, we generally focus on marketing other aspects of the legal profession and on finding more satisfaction in your career. Today, we're talking about something a little different. What it means to manage a demanding career while also caring for an aging parent. Many professionals find themselves in what's often called the sandwich generation, juggling the responsibilities of work, raising children and supporting aging parents at the same time.

It could be emotionally, physically, and professionally challenging. And yet, it's a reality for a growing number of lawyers and other professionals as our population gets older and lives longer. My guest today is Amy Mariani, a Boston-based mediator and former trial lawyer who spent more than two decades in litigation before transitioning her practice to mediation. She now helps individuals and businesses resolve complex disputes.

with a style that is often described as calm, thoughtful, and compassionate. Amy is also a returning guest. We spoke back in 2021 about her transition from litigation to mediation, and I commend you to that episode. Today, we're focusing on a different part of her story, her experience caring for her mother who lived with dementia for a number of years, and how that experience intersected with her professional life.

My own parents died in April of 2020 at the start of the pandemic. They were 95 and 94. It was of course sad and I missed them. But they didn't suffer and they were with each other to the end. They were in assisted living in a memory care unit and had been in assisted living for over three years. While I did have some responsibility for getting them to medical appointments and handling their financial affairs, in the grand scheme of things, I had it relatively easy. The caregivers were

Stephen Seckler (02:23.523)
compassionate and attentive. Their day-to-day needs were met and their facility was only 10 minutes from my house. My three adult kids were already out of the house, so I didn't have any day-to-day responsibilities as a parent. And as I was already working for myself,

Stephen Seckler (02:45.111)
Zalko repeating that last paragraph. The caregivers were compassionate and attentive. Their day-to-day needs were met.

One more time.

Amy Mariani (02:57.422)
You can tell it's something you're having a hard time talking about.

Stephen Seckler (03:03.361)
Yeah, one more time, Chalko.

The caregivers were compassionate and attentive. Their day-to-day needs were met, and their facility was only 10 minutes from my house. My three adult kids were already out of the house, so I didn't have any day-to-day responsibilities as a parent, and I was already working for myself again. I know that many other working professionals have much more on their plate, and so I'm looking forward to hearing what wisdom Amy can share on the subject. Thanks for joining again, Amy.

Amy Mariani (03:35.32)
Thank you for having me. I'm delighted to be with you to talk about a really important subject today.

Stephen Seckler (03:41.055)
and in some ways a hard subject.

Amy Mariani (03:42.924)
Yes, that's true.

Stephen Seckler (03:46.315)
Let's just do a quick overview and recap. Tell us what you do as a mediator.

Amy Mariani (03:51.95)
As a mediator, I handle primarily employment, personal injury, and business-related cases, particularly things like discrimination and harassment claims and wage and hour claims in the employment context, breach of contract disputes, and partnership breakups or business breakups in general in the commercial and business setting. So a wide range of things keeps me busy and having fun.

Stephen Seckler (04:18.901)
Okay. And what did you do as a litigator?

Amy Mariani (04:23.764)
I tried very similar cases, so personal injury, employment, breach of contract, and other commercial matters. So very, very similar subject matters.

Stephen Seckler (04:34.187)
Okay, so going back to your time as a litigator, what did your days look like?

Amy Mariani (04:38.99)
It really varied. When I was on trial, my typical day was 18 hours. When I was not on trial, my typical day could be anywhere from 8 to 12 hours was a standard day. After I had my kids in 2004 and 2006, I really made a concerted effort to try and be home for after school and be home for dinner time. But that often meant that I was working in the evenings to make up for the

quote unquote, lost time.

Stephen Seckler (05:11.883)
Let's jump into our topic for today. When people hear the term sandwich generation. my God. Repeating that question, Jelco.

Stephen Seckler (05:26.593)
Let's get into the main topic for today. When you hear the term sandwich generation, what does that mean to you?

Amy Mariani (05:33.56)
To me, it means having responsibilities both to your children and to someone else, probably parents, but it could be a loved one, like an aunt or an uncle or someone close to your family that is aging and has challenges related to aging.

Stephen Seckler (05:55.588)
Can you take us back to when your caregiving journey began? What was happening in your life and career at that time?

Amy Mariani (06:02.324)
Sure. I had two kids who were, at the time we recognized my mom was having significant memory deficits, young teenagers. They weren't quite fully independent yet. They still need to be picked up and dropped off and taken places and all of that sort of thing. They were capable of getting themselves out the door in the morning with some prodding and some pushing, but they weren't little kids.

was a couple of years into my mediation journey, which began in 2016. my mom started exhibiting marked signs of dementia. She had severe and profound memory loss that was apparent to everybody but her. And those of us around her kept encouraging her to try and get some assistance, but she was resistant to that. So roughly,

three or four years of that and then we moved on to phase two which was a lot more dramatic.

Stephen Seckler (07:10.561)
Was she still living at home?

Amy Mariani (07:12.908)
Yes, when we first noticed that there were issues, she was living at home and she in fact lived at home for roughly seven or eight years of the time that she was dealing with significant memory impairment. And the last two to two and a half years of her life, she was living in an assisted living facility.

Stephen Seckler (07:33.485)
Did you have a diagnosis early on?

Amy Mariani (07:36.215)
We did not and that was part of the problem. She was extremely resistant to getting diagnosed. My grandmother had dementia and my mom kept swearing up and down that that couldn't possibly happen to her because she had plenty of mental stimulation around her. She had plenty of people around her, whereas my grandmother had lived by herself. So she was in denial. I'm pretty sure she knew that there were issues but refused to really accept them.

close to five years before we got her in to see a geriatric neurologist. And we had a diagnosis of dementia after that, but no specific, you know, specific Lewy body or Alzheimer's or, you know, frontal temporal or any other kind of specific diagnosis as to the type of dementia, just a general dementia diagnosis.

Stephen Seckler (08:32.513)
Wow, that's a long time, five years. So you guys first started to notice things were changing, but you know what I've noticed, because I have a lot of peers, like I'm sure you do, that are in this situation, we've now had three parents who have passed, my wife and I, who have gone through this. And you know, at first you're in a little bit of denial, forget about your parent. So do you feel like you and your sibling were...

Amy Mariani (08:35.018)
It's challenging.

Amy Mariani (08:57.122)
Mm-hmm.

Stephen Seckler (09:02.443)
recognizing this right away or were you questioning your own judgment?

Amy Mariani (09:07.796)
I think we recognized pretty early on what was going on. I was old enough when my grandmother started exhibiting signs of dementia to notice, and my mother's disease progression was remarkably similar to her mother's. She also had two siblings who had dementia-related issues as well. And so, you know, we were all on full alert for signs. So when she started

having issues with short-term memory and my kids would say things like at ages four and six or so, Granna never remembers anything. That immediately raised red flags and my sister and I started really paying close attention. Both my mom and my father refused to do anything about it initially and we dragged her kicking and screaming really to the neurologist when she was about 75.

Stephen Seckler (10:09.412)
Can you describe how your responsibilities for helping with the situation changed over time?

Amy Mariani (10:16.716)
Sure. It was actually rather dramatic and abrupt because...

For a long time, my father did a really good job of making sure that she was able to lead a normal, productive, and functional life. He started taking over a lot of things unbeknownst to my sister and I that my mom had previously done. But it all sort of came to a head in 2021 when COVID was rampant and my dad actually ended up in the hospital with COVID.

my sister who had just had COVID ended up staying with my mom who had been diagnosed with COVID but was asymptomatic and my sister stayed there for about a week while my dad was in the hospital and realized the extent of the issues that she was having. We knew her memory was shot but she was still generally able if you were sitting down with her and having a five-minute conversation she was able to have a social conversation but we started really

realizing she was having breaks with reality. And she, when my dad came home, she didn't recognize who my dad was. So we had a lot of panic phone calls about there's this stranger in my house and things like that. that's when we realized we really needed, we really needed to step up as caregivers. We needed to give my dad a break and we needed to figure out a long-term solution. So that was roughly four and a half years before she passed.

Stephen Seckler (11:55.673)
I think denial and cover up is pretty common either for the individual or for the spouse. Was your mother somebody who had good social skills in the day?

Amy Mariani (12:09.066)
Very definitely. She was the first person to start up a conversation in any social setting. She was more than capable of holding her own on just about any kind of a conversation, really probably until the last three years of her life, three and a half years of her life. And she just reached a point where she couldn't hide it any longer, even to people who didn't know her.

Stephen Seckler (12:45.796)
you'll have to delete this part out because I'm getting very emotional.

Amy Mariani (12:52.684)
It's a tough road if you've been there.

Stephen Seckler (12:58.156)
I'll let you know when I'm back. I'm not back yet. my God. It's been six years.

Amy Mariani (13:01.934)
I've done a lot of public speaking about this and that's one of the few reasons why I don't get really hyper. I used to get really, really reactive when I was talking about it and it's been, I've done enough that I'm sort of desensitized to it, but it's tough. It's really tough.

Stephen Seckler (13:17.272)
Yep.

Stephen Seckler (13:24.611)
Yeah.

Stephen Seckler (13:28.428)
I didn't think I was going to get emotional today. I think maybe because it's Passover or something tonight. All right. I am not going to mention something about my mother, basically, Angelica, we're not back on yet.

Amy Mariani (13:30.498)
Yeah.

Stephen Seckler (13:54.518)
me back in a Amy. Just before she died, like somebody came in with hazmat clothes on and she said, I like your hat. Anyway.

Amy Mariani (13:55.822)
Sure.

Amy Mariani (14:09.961)
Bye.

Stephen Seckler (14:10.403)
So sweet. So she never lost her social graces. That's why I asked you that question.

Amy Mariani (14:17.679)
Yeah. Yeah, my mom started losing her language at the very end and that made it a little bit more challenging. But, you know, when she still had her language ability, she was still very much, very much the people pleaser and wanting to make everyone feel welcomed and included.

Stephen Seckler (14:25.239)
Yeah.

Stephen Seckler (14:39.285)
Okay, Zalko, I'm coming back to the questions. So can you say a little bit more about what you actually had to do once this started to happen? And how did that work with, were you able to continue to work? Were you able to continue to be a mediator during this time frame?

Amy Mariani (14:59.831)
I was, but I did have to give up my quote unquote side gigs. At the time that I was, that my sister and I realized there were real issues, I was not only a mediator, but I had a part-time role as a kids fitness coach and as a nutrition coach. And I was able to keep those things going for maybe a year or so with a lot of help from my husband, who was my co-coach and a couple of the other coaches at the gym.

but it just got to be too much because my sister and I...

basically took over going to help my dad get my mom ready for the evening. Sundowning is a real thing in people with dementia. And my mom tended to sundown from about five o'clock to seven or eight, just before bedtime. And my dad, at the end of a long day, was just frazzled and couldn't, you know, couldn't take it. So he really needed help during those periods of time. So two days a week, my sister went over, two days a week, I went over.

And that meant basically my my workday ended around three o'clock in the afternoon because my parents are in Rhode Island So I hopped in the car around three o'clock got there around 415 430 and really helped through dinner and you know changing and getting ready for bed and actually got my mom into bed before Driving back. So I lost anywhere between you know, three and five hours of work per week and I just

didn't have time in my day left to do the other things that I had enjoyed, but something had to give and those were the things that gave.

Stephen Seckler (16:46.391)
Did your family hire aides at all?

Amy Mariani (16:49.515)
At some point we did. My parents were extremely resistant to that initially and my sister and I actually brought in a senior care manager who is basically someone with a social work background who can help families figure out and deal with whatever the situation happens to be, whether that's needing to look at skilled nursing, whether that's needing to look at a long-term care facility and assisted living or in-home help and assistance. They'll do as much

as needed or even just as little as needed, such as a home health care safety check. They'll bring people in to figure out how do you safely stay in your home, have somebody come in and put railings and all of that. So that person was really helpful and helped us talk to my dad in particular about...

how it was necessary and when it was necessary to bring someone in from the outside because there was a point where my mom simply couldn't be by herself and it wasn't fair to my dad to have him in the house 24-7 and my sister and I couldn't always cover when he needed a break.

Stephen Seckler (18:02.979)
So aside from the technical information that the caregiver, the senior care manager gave, what else was, what were some of the intangibles? You basically alluded to it, but can you say a little bit more about how having that third party was helpful? What did she do that made it helpful?

Amy Mariani (18:23.699)
It made it so that my sister and I were never the bad guys when it came to making tough decisions. We could provide her with our observations and our thoughts about a situation. She would raise the issue and she would let my parents, my dad in particular, because at this point my mom was not really capable of making decisions, but she would help walk my dad through the decision-making process, knowing what the inputs were from

involved but slightly more objective parties like my sister and myself. And she also would go over and see my mom personally and interact with her and get a sense of where things were so that she was able to provide far more objective advice to my dad about where my mom's disease stage was, what my mom was and was not capable of doing, and what was and was not realistic for my dad to assume on his own.

Stephen Seckler (19:19.427)
How did your mom react to the senior care manager?

Amy Mariani (19:23.766)
My mom?

at that point didn't really understand who she was in terms of her professional role. We lucked out because the senior care manager that we found actually was the daughter of my parents' dry cleaner with whom my parents had a long-standing and close, you know, professional relationship for many, many years. So they knew the family and that made it very easy for us to just say, Jenny's going

to stop by today and do you remember who Jenny is? And so it was much more social in nature. But I'm always amazed by senior care managers and how they find a way in the door without making it seem like someone's being evaluated or judged in any way. They're just phenomenal people.

Stephen Seckler (20:17.665)
I would add that the aides that I met in all the situations that my parents lived in in the last bunch of years in their lives, similarly, very compassionate people who, you know, they were not high wage earners, maybe the care managers, maybe a little bit more, but it's not, you know, it's not high pay work and the people that do it that are doing it well, which there are many of them, you know, are godsends to families.

Amy Mariani (20:45.315)
Without a doubt, I don't know how people who work in senior care can do what they do, particularly with people who have serious physical or mental limitations. I don't know how they do what they do day in and day out without going home and breaking down every day. I really don't. They're much stronger people than I am.

Stephen Seckler (21:12.139)
Okay, well, so speaking of going home and dealing with it, let's just focus really on the professional side. So how did this all impact your own ability to do work?

Amy Mariani (21:25.367)
It was tough. I am very good at dividing my time up and saying, today is a day for this, today is a day for that, today is a day for that. When you are getting a call from your parents or your sibling and your mom doesn't recognize who your dad is and you're the only one who seems to be able to create that.

reconnection for her, which in our case was that I was the one who could kind of talk her off that ledge.

That call can come in the middle of a professional obligation. And what do you do? I learned a lot of coping skills about how to explain what was going on with people. did, I think, a pretty good job of making sure that my professional engagements ended early enough in the day, where if I was going to have to deal with one of those sundowning episodes, I had the time to handle it. But every once in a while, the two

things met and a head-on collision. For the most part, scheduling my time, figuring out what was going to have to happen and when really, really helped. So I was able to keep my mediation practice together. It did not grow at that time in the way that I had wanted and expected it to grow, but I was still able to do the work that I enjoy and love. I just had to be far more deliberate about it and I couldn't do as much of it as I had wanted to.

Stephen Seckler (23:02.445)
Were there any ways that you feel like this experience made you a better mediator?

Amy Mariani (23:06.903)
Without a doubt, there's no question. It taught me to do two things better. First of all, to really listen and pay attention to what the other person is saying, both verbally and non-verbally.

because someone with dementia has a much harder time expressing their needs or their wants in a way that is typical of who you expected them to be. So they'll react far more emotionally. They may not understand what's going on in their own minds. you've gotta be much better about putting puzzle pieces together. And the second thing is it just made me far more patient because you have

to wait out.

the other person's ability to process or not process information. Because there were days when my mom, even toward the very end, was far more capable of processing whatever you were saying to her, really up until the last six or eight months of her life. There were days where I could go and I could have a meaningful experience with her and where she understood who my kids were and what stages of life they were.

at. And then there were other days where she simply didn't know who I was, much less who my kids were. So it made me a lot more patient about waiting for the right moment to have discussions and conversations and to try and convey information.

Stephen Seckler (24:48.023)
You know, it's amazing, Amy. I mean, we've now known each other for maybe seven years. I met you early on when I was in provisers. And I will just say as an aside that you were extremely helpful to me in dealing with a conflict that I was in the midst of and telling me, you know, should I, do I really want to be involved in this conflict three years from now? So I, you know, I'm grateful to you for that.

But what's really striking to me is that thinking back retrospectively, and I don't think I made this connection until just now. You were in the middle of all this when I interviewed you in 2021, right?

Amy Mariani (25:25.375)
I was, I was. That was really when it was all hitting the wall or the fan or whatever, whatever place you want to talk about it. was honestly the fact that it was during the pandemic, think helped in two ways because it shrank my parents' universe. So it was far easier to bring people into their universe to take care of them. My mom, especially.

And secondly, the rhythm of what I do was disrupted by the pandemic. So business naturally was slower for everyone than it was previously.

Stephen Seckler (26:14.327)
What about thinking back what it would have been like if you had still been trying to litigate?

Amy Mariani (26:21.121)
I couldn't have done what I did in terms of being there for my parents and tried cases at the same time without, while still staying sane. It would have been an incredible psychological hit to me. Could I have done it? Yes. Would I have done it? Probably. Would I have been a...

a whole person at the end of the process, I don't think so. think I'd be in for years of therapy if I'd attempted it.

Stephen Seckler (27:10.881)
yeah, okay. Back on track, Shilko. What about relationships between siblings? I had a sister who was living on the other side of the country, so most of the responsibility for the day-to-day was really in my hands. And again, I really had it pretty easy. Can you say something about that now, having been part of a group and hearing lots of other people's stories? And we'll get into the group in a second.

Amy Mariani (27:36.304)
Yeah I think...

Every family, every relationship is different. I got very lucky because my sister lived in the same town, still lives in the same town that my parents were in. And so a lot of that, you know, the casual drop-bys for 10 minutes just to see how they're doing, that kind of thing fell on her. And she was, she has a lot going on. So she was, she didn't necessarily have time for it, but it was,

pretty easy for her to figure out a way to make it happen. And I in turn took on things that I'm naturally pretty good at, such as research, such as the legal, the financial, all of that sort of thing. I took on figuring those kinds of things and then structured in and scheduled in regular check-ins and visits and things like that as well. It requires tremendous communication. It requires

tremendous clarity about strengths and weaknesses of everyone involved. And it requires a commitment to figuring out a way forward, whether that's the people doing the work themselves or finding the way to get the work done. you know, when you're when I'm dealing with people who, you know, come to me and say, well, we're in this the middle of this and my sister or brother is across the country, I'm local, or I'm not near my parents, what are some options?

The first thing I suggest to them is consulting with a senior care manager either private or there are also area access points for aging that are really run using state and federal dollars and those places are tremendous resources if you're trying to keep family in your home or in their homes because if you are financially eligible those services can be provided to you for free or a very

Amy Mariani (29:38.786)
small fee or at a private rate if you're financially eligible there. But help in to have those family discussions and figure out who's going to be best at doing different things and keep talking. If you don't keep talking about things as they change, then the resentment starts piling up.

Stephen Seckler (30:01.315)
Speaking of resentment, here's a leading question. Do you think there's a role for mediation when siblings are not necessarily on the same page?

Amy Mariani (30:04.909)
Hahaha

Amy Mariani (30:11.713)
Very definitely. And I actually have several colleagues to whom I refer cases of that nature because this is really tough stuff. It's not easy at all. And senior care managers can do wonders, but there comes a time where really tough decisions may need to be made. And you want to have everybody on the same page when you're making those decisions. So there are some wonderful mediators who work with families on,

range of issues including elder care.

Stephen Seckler (30:47.841)
You started a group for children of aging parents and it's affiliated with our national networking group, Provisors, which is a business networking group that I talk about all the time. Can you say a little something about how you started that group and what that group has meant for you?

Amy Mariani (31:10.955)
Sure. It was actually during the pandemic and I was on a call, a one-to-one call with a gentleman and provisers who was going through something similar, not exactly the same as what I was dealing with, but was dealing with issues related to his parents. And we just talked about at the end of the conversation how therapeutic it had been.

to have the discussion we had and how it would be really great to get other people involved in the conversation. So we started just when we were in provisors meetings saying, hey, there were a bunch of us who are interested in this topic. If you're interested, just reach out to Amy. She'll put you on a mailing list and we'll get together once a month and just talk about the things that we're facing. So we created this unofficial group back in either 2020 or 2021. I don't remember which it was.

And it's taken on sort of a life of its own where people who are professionals who have personal experiences will join the group. People who have no connection to the elder care services industry will also join the group to get access to resources and the like. So we're the unofficial aging parents and caregivers group. It's been around for a while and it's still chugging along and helping people figure out and triage the issues that they have.

Stephen Seckler (32:38.134)
Do have to be a member of provisers to join?

Amy Mariani (32:41.067)
You do. There are, however, a lot of resources out there that provide similar kinds of benefits without needing to be a provisor's member. Again, the aging services groups that I was talking about often run peer-to-peer groups and groups that are professionally led on caregiving and family interactions in the caregiving environment.

Stephen Seckler (33:08.618)
What was the most surprising thing about the group for you?

Amy Mariani (33:13.443)
How many people are suffering in silence as caregivers and have real needs that aren't getting met and they don't know where to turn for help. So that's one of the biggest.

takeaways that I think came out of the group for me. And it's wonderful now having walked that journey myself, having the language, having the knowledge that I do, so that when I hear a friend or I hear a colleague talk about, know, they had an emergency with family of some kind, I can help guide them toward resources that may make a material difference in their lives and the lives of their loved ones.

Stephen Seckler (33:47.2)
you

Stephen Seckler (33:57.773)
So we're getting near the end here. If you could go back and give yourself advice at the beginning of this journey, what would you say to yourself?

Amy Mariani (34:05.935)
start the process 20 years earlier than I did. And my kids right now are 19 and 21. And...

Probably in another five or six years I'm gonna want to have my husband and I sit down with the two of them and have a real honest conversation about what we want, how we want things to play out. Then when we're in our mid-60s, early 70s, start looking for a senior care manager that will work with us on the journey, even though we don't need that person necessarily at that point in time. I want my kids to have an easier time of things with a

plan in place and not have to make decisions on an emergency basis or without guidance in the way that our family had to at certain points in time.

Stephen Seckler (34:57.558)
Wow, that's great advice. I told my kids that they're not allowed to put... Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now?

Amy Mariani (35:01.679)
Oops, Steve, I'm not hearing you for some reason.

Amy Mariani (35:08.961)
No, I don't know if it's me or you.

Stephen Seckler (35:14.412)
Check one, two, check, check, check, check. Can you hear me? My audio is showing that I'm recording. Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Still can't hear me? Testing one, two, three, testing. Okay. All right, Jelco, obviously you should delete all that.

Amy Mariani (35:14.691)
me check my audio here.

Amy Mariani (35:26.167)
Still not hearing you.

Amy Mariani (35:32.907)
Now I can hear you.

Yeah, I can hear you now.

Amy Mariani (35:41.101)
Hahaha

Stephen Seckler (35:44.683)
Did you hear me? What was the last thing you heard me say?

Amy Mariani (35:48.096)
I didn't hear your question. it was my, the last thing I heard was me finishing my answer.

Stephen Seckler (36:00.173)
So you did hear the question, if you could go back and give yourself advice. You did hear that.

Amy Mariani (36:05.527)
Yes, and then I talked about that, you know, I'd have a 20 year plan and.

Stephen Seckler (36:10.772)
Okay, okay, I see. right, okay, Zsalko, just delete all that, what we just said. And now here comes my stupid comment. Okay, you ready, Zsalko? So I talked to my kids about it a little bit, and I said that they're not allowed to send me out on the ice flow until I'm at least 91.

Stephen Seckler (36:33.674)
Anyway, you gotta have a sense of humor in all this because it is really hard. mean, even for the three parents that my wife and I have had to deal with, and we have one other parent left, my wife's mother, and she has some issues, let's just say, right now. But anyway, it's hard. So finding other people to commiserate with who've been through the same experience.

getting professional help and maybe joining a support group. Those are all, I think, really great things to be doing.

Amy Mariani (37:07.471)
It's essential. And as a society, have to, particularly since we've got a huge number of people who are about to hit the stage where they may need some help, we need to be more open and honest about aging as a society, and we need to be more respectful of it as well.

Stephen Seckler (37:29.068)
Great advice. All right, here's the final question that I ask all of my guests. What is one podcast, streaming television series or book that you'd recommend and this is purely for enjoyment?

Amy Mariani (37:41.617)
am super into the pit right now. It's when every episode comes out I am ready, I am eager, I just can't wait to see what's happening next. And one of the things that I love about it is it really highlights some of the generational issues in the workplace. There was one episode and I'm not going to spoil it for anybody, but there's someone who is in Gen Z who is in the workplace and reacts to

situation so totally differently than anybody else in the workplace that it just sort of a light bulb went off in my head about I think Gen Z may have a better way of approaching work than prior generations do.

Stephen Seckler (38:26.56)
Well, we'll have to talk about that offline. I got to say, you you as a litigator where you've had incredibly long days and lots of chaos sometimes. mean, that show takes place for anybody who's not familiar with it. Like the entire season is just one shift.

And if everything that happens during that whole season happened in one shift, I think I would be, if I were in that ER, I would be institutionalized. I'd be in the ER because it's like every calamity known to humankind happens during one season. So it's great show.

Amy Mariani (38:54.638)
hahahaha

Amy Mariani (39:03.44)
It is, it's a fabulous show and I really, again, I have such tremendous respect for people who can do that kind of work and stay relatively sane at the end of the day.

Stephen Seckler (39:17.01)
And spoiler alert, not everybody stays sane during this show. Amy, this has been a great conversation. Thanks so much for joining us. If anyone in our audience has follow up questions about this or about mediation, how can they reach you?

Amy Mariani (39:19.44)
Hahaha

Amy Mariani (39:33.622)
They can reach me. The easiest place to go to is my website marianimediation.com and that has both my phone number, which is 617-279-0540 and my email contact. It's a long, long email, so I won't give it on the show right now, but my contact information is there. It's easiest generally to reach me through email because when I'm mediating, I can't really respond to phone calls, but I can generally get back to you within a couple of hours through an email.

So.

Stephen Seckler (40:05.878)
and that'll be in the show notes or at least the website will surely be in the show notes.

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