Episode 168: Health Law Advocates: Practicing Public Interest Law | Matt Selig

Stephen Seckler (00:03.599)
Welcome back everybody. Just a reminder that if you are listening to Council to Council on one of the audio podcasting platforms like Spotify, you could also find us now on YouTube. If you're watching on YouTube, it's nice to have you here.

Stephen Seckler (00:20.325)
Today we're here to talk about health law associates and careers in the public interest. Health law.

Today we're here to talk about health law advocates and careers in the public interest. Health Law Advocates is a Massachusetts based public interest law firm dedicated exclusively to improving access to health care for the Commonwealth's most vulnerable residents. Many people go to law school wanting to do mission driven work. I know I did. In this episode, we're talking to somebody who actually does that every day. My guest, Matt Selig, has spent nearly two decades with HLA.

rising from staff attorney to executive director. His career offers a great window into how health access challenges have evolved in Massachusetts and what the landscape looks like today. We are going to discuss the challenges and rewards of a public interest legal career as well.

Welcome to Council to Council, Matt. Thanks so much for joining us.

Matt Selig (01:34.104)
Thanks, Steve. Thank you for having me. I'm very happy to speak with you and to your listeners.

Stephen Seckler (01:41.167)
Let's begin by talking about your organization. How does health law advocates improve health care access for Massachusetts residents?

Matt Selig (01:50.52)
So health law advocates, we're known as HLA, most people know us as HLA, as you said, we are a nonprofit public interest law firm. And our mission is to help people overcome access to health care by providing free legal services to income eligible residents of Massachusetts. And we also have an additional mission of improving health care access generally in the community for people who are most at risk.

due to factors such as race, ethnicity, gender, status, disability, and so forth. And we carry out our mission with three buckets of activities. And the main thing we do, the vast majority of what we do is provide free legal assistance to people who are having trouble accessing healthcare and need a lawyer.

to overcome those barriers. We also do outreach and trainings with community members to let them know about their rights in the healthcare system and how to advocate for themselves. Or if you're a service provider, advocate for somebody else. And we also communicate with policymakers as well.

and folks who work in the healthcare system who have policies within their institutions to try to impact those policies to improve access to healthcare. So those are our activities that we carry out. And then our organization has identified some particular priority areas that we focus on and use those activities to address.

And I can say what those priorities are. Our largest program is our mental health advocacy program for kids, which helps obviously children overcome barriers to mental health services. We also have an immigrant healthcare access initiative focusing on access for folks who are not United States citizens, but live in our state.

Matt Selig (03:59.244)
We also have a program focusing on helping people with medical debt. We have a program focused on helping transgender people and gender diverse populations access gender affirming care. And we have a program that focuses on helping people with disabilities make sure that they can access health care in their home or in their community so they're able to live independently in their community. And we also

have work that generally seeks to defend people's rights in health insurance.

both publicly subsidized health insurance like Medicaid and commercial health plans. I left out one program, we have a program also mental health related, but it's our mental health parity initiative. And that focuses on making sure that health plans provide benefits that are equal in terms of benefits covering physical health care, so to speak, and mental health care and substance abuse.

Stephen Seckler (04:44.954)
you

Stephen Seckler (05:05.624)
Wow, that's quite an exhaustive list. It sounds like the Ginsu knife set, like, and that's not all. We'll also, how many hundreds of lawyers work with your organization?

Matt Selig (05:11.118)
Well, don't have hundreds, but we have a really good size staff and a terrific staff. we have 40 staff people all together and we have about 25 lawyers on our team right now.

Stephen Seckler (05:33.102)
What are some of the more specific legal issues that might come up in some of the work that you do? Just give it, just give it, just give a few. You don't have to like get an exhaustive list.

Matt Selig (05:37.548)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So...

Sure. Yeah, so our mental health advocacy program for kids work largely involves helping kids gain access to therapeutic supports in the schools by exercising their rights under special education laws. So we'll represent.

kids in that program, our mental health advocacy program for kids, and a child might be absent from school extensively because of a mental health issue. And what happens, and there's been some data on this discussed by state agencies, that what happens to a lot of those children is that because they're absent from school because of a mental illness, what happens is that they're

instead of providing them with supports for their mental health concerns, they are too often directed into the juvenile court system through a truancy case. So our work will be, in that type of case, our work would be around diverting them from the court system, which isn't really set up to help kids access mental health services and try to get school systems and state agencies and maybe health plans to ensure that the child is receiving the health care services that they need. Mental health services.

That's one area. I can mention another. I mentioned our program that supports immigrants. So there is a systemic issue that we have seen for years and years where immigrants, when they're

Matt Selig (07:27.404)
trying to apply for public benefits, Medicaid or insurance through our health insurance exchange, which is called the Health Connector in Massachusetts, that they are in many instances.

placed into coverage that has far fewer benefits than they're eligible for. And that's because the overlay between immigration policy and health benefits policy is very, complicated. And so folks get placed wrongfully in coverage that is much less than they're eligible for. So we'll represent folks and demonstrate how they are eligible for higher levels of coverage. And many of those clients

that are in that situation are in a position where they need that better coverage for oppressing healthcare need. So people might be in a coverage that has very limited benefits and need an organ transplant. And that's why they've come to us because their healthcare provider has said, this person needs a liver transplant or a heart transplant and their insurance won't cover it. They're on this minimal plan because there's a perception that they're undocumented.

but we're able to demonstrate that they have a different status, lawfully present status, and they'll be eligible for a higher level of coverage, and they'll be able to access a service like an organ transplant or cancer treatment or other services that are pressing needs for that person. those are a couple examples. I could go on one other, maybe I'll just say our disability program, folks with

complex healthcare needs and significant disabilities. Oftentimes enroll in Medicaid. Even if they have private insurance, they'll enroll in Medicaid to get coverage for long-term services and supports, which commercial health insurance doesn't typically cover. And we have folks who

Matt Selig (09:28.674)
lot of folks who require services such as personal care attendant services or home health aides in order to live independently. And there are disputes sometimes with our Medicaid agency, which is called Mass Health in Massachusetts, over how many hours the person needs. So they may determine that a person with a disability needs 20 hours per week of personal care attendant services. They used to need 40, but now they say, circumstances

of change they need 20, but will represent clients and make sure that their services are restored if they are medically necessary. So that's a third example of the kind of work that we do within the projects I described.

Stephen Seckler (10:12.123)
Okay, Matt. So these are great answers, but from here forward, can you keep them a little bit shorter? And then let me ask follow up questions just to keep it more conversational. But everything you've said so far is terrific. Okay.

Matt Selig (10:18.872)
Sure.

Matt Selig (10:22.446)
Sure. Okay,

Stephen Seckler (10:31.503)
How has the mission of HLA evolved since you first joined the organization?

Matt Selig (10:38.542)
So when I first got to Health Law Advocates in 2005, so I've been with the organization for 21 years, we didn't have a policy in Massachusetts that was designed to provide insurance coverage for everybody in the state. About a year after I got to HLA, our state passed that law. And it was designed to ensure everybody in the state had either

insurance through their employer or publicly subsidized insurance, know, generally speaking. And so things change right off the bat. There was this huge new law that our organization pivoted to helping people benefit from. And

Matt Selig (11:27.598)
Other various other issues have come up over time that we've addressed. A significant new mental health parity law was something that came along in 2010 and we took a created a priority of making sure that that big change in policy that consumers had access to those benefits. And then very recently we've had

a situation where on the federal level there's been another major policy change. The big, big

beautiful bill so-called passed on the federal level last year and that is kind of the opposite of what happened in 2005. It's deconstructing policy for universal health care and so now our work is shifting again towards largely speaking towards protecting people from the impact of this new law. So oftentimes what happens is that there'll be a major change in public policy that changes one way or another what people are entitled to in terms of coverage or other

otherwise healthcare access and will tailor our work towards helping our clients navigate those laws.

Stephen Seckler (12:44.091)
Okay. If you can keep it just a little bit shorter, sorry. Yeah, yeah. Now, and allow me to ask the follow up questions then. okay. Let's shift gears here, because a lot of people listening to this podcast are looking for inspiration for their own careers. So I think a good starting point is usually you telling us a little bit about your own journey.

Matt Selig (12:50.23)
even joyer, okay. No, no.

Stephen Seckler (13:11.269)
Why don't you walk us through quickly where you began and where you, we know where you are today, but where you began.

Matt Selig (13:19.5)
Sure, I'll give you the kind of thumbnail sketch, but I will start back when I was in college and I toward the.

Later part of college, I gained an appreciation for the political process and public policy. And so after college, I went to Washington and worked on Capitol Hill for two years for Senator Ted Kennedy on his committee staff. And there I got exposed to healthcare policy law, which was the most interesting to me, most interesting part of that experience to me. And I saw that the folks working on that committee who were having an impact were lawyers. So I went to law school to have the same experience that they did.

After that I went.

back into public policy, worked in the Massachusetts State House for several years, significantly on issues relating to public policy, but I really wanted to be a lawyer representing clients who, and especially, you know, delivering legal aid services. So I found an opportunity to come over to Health Law Advocates after working in the Massachusetts State House in 2005, and the opportunity at HLA really provided me the perfect opportunity, because we do do some work that's related to policy,

but I also had the chance to have my own panel of clients that I was helping navigate the system.

Stephen Seckler (14:40.399)
I want to hear a little bit more about your current role and how you evolved from doing the work to overseeing the whole organization. But first, can you say a little something about what it takes to be successful doing the work at HLA if somebody's thinking about, I'm interested in this kind of role?

Matt Selig (15:00.118)
Yeah. Well, you really have to believe in the mission. It has to be something that you're passionate about. I think that's really the driving force for people who are successful in our organization. You really have to believe that people have a right to access health care, regardless of what your income or circumstances are. So I think that's really essential. And then I think...

you know, the basics, hard work, know, collegiality, with, know, ability to work with your clients, and also some stamina, because the whole reason why our organization exists is because fighting for healthcare access can be very difficult sometimes. And so you have to be persistent. You know, have to be diplomatic and professional. You have to be compassionate and empathetic for your clients. And you have to be willing, you know, to fight.

you know, fight for your clients rights while also looking for ways to also really work with other parties. Because I think in Massachusetts, we really do have a culture, this may not be universal, but I think we have a culture in Massachusetts where stakeholders in the healthcare system, whether you're a health plan, which are largely nonprofit in Massachusetts, or a hospital, or other type of healthcare provider, or the government,

They really buy into the ethic of helping people access healthcare. So in many instances, folks, given the right information, given the appropriate argument, they are willing to do the right thing to help somebody get access to healthcare. But there's a lot of pressures on different people in the different parts of the healthcare system that make that difficult sometimes. So, know, a mix of really persistence, but also, you know, looking for solutions with even somebody who might be adverse to you.

Stephen Seckler (16:55.855)
What kinds of skills and experiences do you look for when you're making a hire for your organization?

Matt Selig (17:04.113)
Well, we love to see if you know, for hiring a more experienced attorney, we really like to see people who've worked in legal aid before, who've have some exposure to the healthcare system, you know, know the language, know their way around the different parts of the healthcare system, the role of insurance, the role of government, the role of healthcare providers. And if they're, you know, so we...

definitely prioritize folks who have several years of legal aid or other public interest experience, although we'll definitely consider folks who are coming from the private sector. You know, if their experience we think will help them transition to a public interest career 100%. And then for hiring a more junior attorney, we're looking for really strong internships, know, clerkships during law school, maybe even a clerkship with us. We have a terrific internship program that we encourage folks to apply to.

So definitely experience, those types of experiences are important to us. Giving people, they're not going to come in fresh and not have any exposure to the healthcare system or legal aid type work, public interest work.

Stephen Seckler (18:17.551)
What about lawyers who are in private practice, like many of the lawyers that I talked to who are feeling a little bit burnt out from representing corporate clients, and yet maybe they've done some pro bono work. What do you think somebody could do to prepare themselves for a transition into an organization like yours or a firm like yours?

Matt Selig (18:24.227)
Yeah.

Matt Selig (18:40.428)
Well, yeah, when you started to talk about folks who are in private practice, I was started to think about somebody in that position would

you know, we would still consider them, you know, a good candidate to come work at HLA if they had a pretty active, you know, pro bono practice and, you know, showed a level of experience and, you know, interest in that kind of work. So I think that somebody who's in private practice and they're thinking, you know, maybe in terms of a year or two down the road where they might want to be, you know, I would, I try to build up your pro bono practice and

and take as many cases as you can. Look for an opportunity to serve on a board of directors. Make a contribution to groups because we depend on those contributions. Attend events, go to a bar association, mixers, meet people, talk to people, 100%. So those transitions are definitely possible. have folks, have had folks coming from private sector experiences. And it's great to see if somebody has

taking some steps to prepare themselves to make that transition, like doing some pro bono work and familiarizing self with the public interest community.

Stephen Seckler (20:04.059)
Speaking of dollars, where does your funding come from?

Matt Selig (20:09.43)
So we have about $5.5 million budget this year. Our largest source of funding comes through the state budget and it largely funds our mental health advocacy program for kids. And we're very grateful to the Commonwealth for supporting that work. We also...

raise about a million dollars in grants from foundations and other philanthropic organizations. We have about 800,000 or so from individual and corporate contributions through a big event we have every year. And we also have about $300,000 in contracts with some healthcare provider organizations that we work with.

to help their patients and members get access to healthcare and overcome barriers to insurance coverage and other barriers to care. those are our biggest areas of income.

Stephen Seckler (21:16.475)
short of taking a full-time job in some kind of a public interest law firm, how can lawyers get involved in HLAs work?

Matt Selig (21:26.454)
So since our very beginning, we've had a pro bono legal network which allows folks in the community, lawyers in the community to sign up and be available to accept case referrals from us. So.

We have about 150 lawyers who are on that panel now and some are more active than others, but they all receive an email from us every two weeks and they have a listing of cases that are available for referral with the description and they can let us know, let the manager of our legal network know they're interested in taking a case and we make the process very easy. First of all, we identify clients that we think would work well with a volunteer attorney. They're communicative. They have a case that's navigable.

you know, an interesting case, but you know, not overwhelming if that's not what somebody is looking for. And we also provide support from a staff attorney at HLA to mentor somebody who's taking on a pro bono case. So we absolutely love to have lawyers in private practice work with us, take cases because we...

need the help very much. have a waiting list for services, so if folks aren't helped by a staff attorney or a volunteer lawyer, they are likely going to end up on our waiting list and have to wait longer than we would like to be able to get a lawyer to help them. And that's not a good situation, especially if the help you need is to get access to a health care service.

Stephen Seckler (22:52.635)
For lawyers that are coming from the private sector, what do they need to know about working for your organization or just in general working in the public interest?

Matt Selig (23:06.198)
Well, I think they need to know that it's really, really rewarding. And the work is, is of course challenging, can be frustrating at times, almost any kind of work, I think is. But the work really is very rewarding. And the

successes you have are very concrete and you're working with folks and get a lot of results where the person has come to you in a really, really difficult circumstance and the situation ends up where you've really helped somebody be able to live a much better life because they're able to access the healthcare that they need. So I would say, you know, if you,

see a public interest job and I think probably more often than not you're going to see a salary range that is lower than most private sector jobs. Maybe by a little, maybe by more than a little, but I think that you know job satisfaction and

the sense of really helping somebody who's in a very vulnerable situation is really rewarding. And we also have a great team. People are in it because they appreciate the mission and they are very collaborative. mean, speaking my organization in particular, and I know many other legal organizations that we work with, they're great places to work and folks work really hard and support each other in

ways that ease the kind of hardships that you would expect. That it can be hard work, that you're experiencing people with very difficult situations. So there's kind of some transference of those difficulties on top of whatever you yourself might have going on. But it really is very rewarding. And I think that if you can make it work from a salary point of view, would 100 % recommend this field.

Stephen Seckler (25:14.139)
Can you say just a little bit more about secondary trauma? there anything that your organization does as an organization to address some of the difficult situations that your lawyers are experiencing?

Matt Selig (25:18.04)
Mm.

Matt Selig (25:27.438)
Yeah, so that's real for sure and...

There are cases where people that we're representing have been through abusive situations, immigrants who are facing a lot of oppression in the community from immigration enforcement, all sorts of different ways that.

folks are having their own trauma that can impact folks when they're working with them. And so there is a state actually run service called Lawyers Concerned for Lawyers. And it's a program that provides group.

discussions, facilitators for group discussions and even individual discussions and they're fantastic organization and our legal teams have regular meetings set up with lawyers concerned for lawyers and it's really invaluable. get to share experiences that they have, discuss coping strategies. So that's a wonderful service that we take advantage of and we try to focus

on employee wellness in other ways, just generally speaking. that lawyer's concern for lawyers is a main way we work with that. And then supporting our staff with generous leave time and that kind of thing to make sure people can get away and disconnect from the office for hopefully as much time as they need.

Stephen Seckler (27:07.375)
I'll just add that in Massachusetts, Lawyers' Concern for Lawyers is what will be called or what would be called around the country a Lawyers' Assistance Program. And I think pretty much in every jurisdiction there is a Lawyers' Assistance Program that provides free and confidential counseling to members of the legal community. Actually, it's not just lawyers, but I think a lot of lawyers are the ones who take part in it. LCL in Massachusetts is a terrific organization.

I know the people that work there. I've spoken. It's just a great organization. So if you're just an individual, if you're just an individual who's experiencing some of these psychological issues, anxiety, depression, ADHD, there are people in your state who can at least be an initial point of contact to help you start to address some of those issues. Matt.

Matt Selig (27:42.698)
Absolutely.

Matt Selig (27:54.144)
Okay.

Stephen Seckler (28:04.003)
We're getting close to the end, I did want to hear a little bit more about how you transitioned into the executive director role and anything or any advice you might have for somebody who is thinking about not necessarily a strictly legal role in a nonprofit. So what can you say about what you do, how you got to where you are, and what people might want to be thinking about?

Matt Selig (28:24.91)
Mm-hmm. Sure.

Matt Selig (28:30.048)
Okay, yeah, absolutely. So when I came to Healthly Advocates, I...

had never represented a client before except for through an internship at the public defender's office during college. So I was lucky to have a chance to come into HLA. I'd had work experience and I'd been through law school and I'd had a lot of public policy experience and help people with constituent services. But I came in and was came in as a staff attorney and we were a really small organization when I came to HLA. So we had five point five staff people. So we had an executive director and three staff attorneys and then two non-legal staff.

And so I started off as an entry level attorney and then within a couple of years, a new executive director came in and we had a little bit of growth and let's say we had six or seven staff people at the time. And I...

I knew I wasn't experienced enough to take on the role of executive director when we had that first transition about two years into the organization. Although I think I had gained some important experiences, I had started to supervise another lawyer that was even junior to me. I had done a little bit of fundraising and so forth, but I really wasn't ready to be the executive director when we had a transition. The organization grew, like I said, to about seven or eight staff people. And then there was another executive director transition when I had been at

the organization for about four and half, five years. And so at that point,

Matt Selig (30:03.18)
Well, had also the second executive director had asked me to become the deputy director. So she worked with me to introduce me a little to the budgeting of the organization and some additional parts of the management of the organization and kind of overall strategy. So that was a growth experience for me that I was very grateful to have from our executive director, second executive director, who was Barbara Anthony. And then when she decided that she was going to move to the Deval Patrick

administration, I did apply to be the executive director and was hired for the job. so, you know, if HLA had had 40 staff people at the time, I don't know if I would have been a great candidate, but, you know, I had been a leader in an organization that was six or seven people, you know, big. And so they gave me a chance and I really appreciated that they did give me a chance. think being somebody who was had been a part of the organization and had helped it grow

you me a good candidate for the job. And I have had the chance to...

work with our team to really grow the organization by, you know, really by, you know, two things, you know, showing that we do great work and earning the confidence of, you know, people that can support us, that can invest in us, whether it's the state or philanthropy or individuals or businesses. So we've worked really hard to provide excellent services that people want to invest in. And I think it's fair to say that I've learned on the job, I've had, you know, some, you know, professional development experience, but a lot of it has been working on the job, our board of

directors has been incredibly, incredibly supportive. All of our board chairs who I work with closely helped me navigate things. I've always had a great CFO. Other senior lawyers have helped me in so many ways. you know, I've so in that in my new role, I, you know, my role is more overall strategy. I do a lot of fundraising. I work with our legal team directors to kind of identify the goals for their teams and the issues that

Matt Selig (32:11.888)
they want their lawyers to focus on and do lot of external, you know, kind of communications with other people to let them know what HLA is doing and keep the community informed and outreach to potential clients. And so my role has shifted, but I am in conversations with individual, you know, on individual client matters. I've continued to handle a couple of individual cases over the years. I don't have my own whole caseload, but my role has changed.

And yeah, I love it. It's a great, a very lucky to be part of Healthline Advocates and have a chance to be a leader in the organization. It's a great mission. Our supporters are fantastic. So now I'm just, you know, talking about all the good stuff, but that was my path really from a junior member of a very small organization because it was really small, had a chance to take a leadership role probably, you know, before I would have been able to take a leadership role in a larger organization. And I think, you know,

I think I've had success in the job because our organization has grown. know we deliver terrific legal services to our clients and I think we have a good reputation in the community. So I'm really proud of what we've been able to accomplish. yeah, it's fun to build something. Not only do I think we have a really strong mission, but it's fun to build a program and to see how much more impact that you can have every single day, every single month, every single year.

Stephen Seckler (33:42.402)
And it's such an important mission. what is the single best piece of advice you'd give someone seriously considering a public, ugh. What is the single best piece of advice you'd give someone seriously considering a public interest career?

Matt Selig (33:58.223)
Um, so we covered some of it. It depends where you are. If you're, I know your audience is mostly lawyers who are, um, you know, experienced attorneys, I think. So become involved, become involved, volunteer. Practically every legal organization has an opportunity to do volunteer work representing somebody or providing research or something. Reach out, get involved and, you know, see if, if the, if the work is interesting to you. There's so many different issue areas to tap into, whether it's housing or immigration law or healthcare access or domestic violence.

There's so many different areas to choose from and every area has legal aid or legal aid organizations, I think, and I think they all accept volunteers. So that's definitely one thing if you are a and that would go for somebody who's, you know, a first year attorney at a law firm or a solo practice if you can squeeze it in. And if you're a law student, obviously apply for internships, apply to to volunteer for organizations during the semester and just introduce yourself if organizations.

have events or trainings, go and meet people and get yourself out there. know, introduce yourself to these groups where organizations that, you know, we're looking for chances to interact with people in the community because we need all the help we can get. So, yeah, get out there and learn about the work that folks are doing and find the group that really inspires you to get involved and, you work for the community.

Stephen Seckler (35:25.626)
Great advice. Last question that I ask all my guests, what's one podcast, streaming series or book that you'd recommend and this is purely for enjoyment.

Matt Selig (35:36.75)
Oh, good. I'm glad. So yeah. Okay. So purely for enjoyment, a hundred percent. um, so I am, I do listen to some podcasts. know, mostly, mostly just for enjoyment or fun. So I'm a huge sports fan. So I love the Bill Simmons podcast. Um, you know, he's a,

lot of what he taught. He's a huge Boston sports fan. I, he's about my same age. So I relate really to, you know, his conversations a little bit. the Bill Simmons podcast, outstanding sports, sports series, and he puts up a lot of content. puts up probably four podcasts a week. So by the time, you know, I finished one, I'm onto the next. So that's actually, think a really good reason to listen to it because you're not starving for content. And streaming, I was just talking the other

Stephen Seckler (36:23.872)
No, no, no, no, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. I just wanted one. I just want that one. Or or it was not and it was or. OK, we're already we're already we're already running over time here. OK. Matt, this has been a great conversation. Thanks so much for joining us. You're doing such important work. If anyone in our audience has follow up questions, how can they reach you?

Matt Selig (36:28.43)
Okay. Okay. Oh, I thought you said it. I thought you said too. All right, great.

Oh, okay. All All right. All right. You can edit me out.

Matt Selig (36:40.61)
Got it?

Matt Selig (36:52.771)
email me at celigs.org.

Stephen Seckler (37:03.384)
I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please tell others and rate us on iTunes, your favorite podcast app or like us on YouTube. If you'd like to continue the conversation, I welcome your inquiries and invite you to set up a time to speak with me about your own career or marketing concerns. I've been coaching lawyers for over 25 years and I'm happy to do a free 30 minute consultation. You could sign up on my website at secler.com. That's S-E-C-K-L-E-R.com.

On my website, you can also find links to more episodes of Council to Council and get access to many free career marketing and leadership resources. In the meantime, thanks for listening. Okay, did we miss anything?

Matt Selig (37:48.504)
I think that was great. You previewed everything in a great way. Yeah. Sorry I was too talking of you.

Stephen Seckler (37:50.019)
Okay, okay great. Yeah, I'm gonna hit the stop button but don't go in it. No, that's okay, that's okay.