Episode 184: Stepping Off the Treadmill: Ginny Johnson on Sabbaticals, Career Transitions, and the Future of Legal Careers

Stephen Seckler (00:03.672)

Welcome back everybody. Just a reminder that if you're listening to Counsel to Counsel on one of the audio podcast platforms like Spotify or Apple Podcasts, you could also find us now on YouTube. If you're watching on YouTube, it's nice to have you here. What happens when a successful lawyer decides to step away from a demanding career without having the next job lined up? My guest today, Ginny Johnson, did just that.

After more than two decades in the legal profession, including senior positions at major law firms and leadership roles at several corporations, Ginny decided to take a sabbatical. She used that time to travel, invest in her health, and conduct what she calls a turbocharged networking tour. She spoke with hundreds of lawyers, business leaders, investors, and other professionals to explore her own next chapter and understand how the legal market is changing.

Those conversations became the foundation for a paper examining the impact of artificial intelligence on legal services and legal careers. And in September, Ginny began a new chapter as a partner at Outside General Counsel, where she provides fractional and interim legal leadership and strategic advice to businesses. Today, we'll talk about Ginny's career journey, what she learned by stepping off the professional treadmill.

and what her research suggests about the future of legal careers. Ginny, welcome to Counsel to Counsel.

Ginny Johnson (01:31.996)

Thank you so much. Happy to be here. Thanks for the invitation.

Stephen Seckler (01:36.974)

Ginny, before we get into the lessons from your career transition, can you very quickly walk us through the different roles you've had in your career, beginning with your role at Big Law?

Ginny Johnson (01:47.837)

Sure. so following school, BU undergrad and Cardozo Law School, I started my career as an associate at Weill Dottrell in the New York office in the securities litigation corporate governance practice group. I moved to the Boston office of the firm a few years later, so I was at Weill for about nine years total. I became a partner at Prince Lobel, a Boston based firm where I continued to be a litigator.

And then I ended up having the opportunity to move in house about twelve years or so into practice. So I joined a company that was then owned by Goldman Sachs called Goldman Sachs Reinsurance Group. we spun it out of Goldman, rebranded it Global Atlantic Financial Group, and that company is now owned by KKR. I was there for about eight years, so a lot of growth of the business and of my professional skills happened in that role.

from there I left to become the general counsel of Schneider Electric North America, which was a big industry pivot and into a global di business, different sector, much larger team. and from there I ended up joining a company called Aspen Aerodrils as the chief legal officer. I was the and that is a New York stock exchange publicly traded company.

where I did a lot of things. I was the CLO, I was the board secretary, the chief compliance officer, built out sustainability and enterprise risk and lots of really exciting work there. and it was from that role that I decided to move on last summer and do something I had never done before, which was take a a bit of a break before pursuing the next thing.

Stephen Seckler (03:26.838)

Okay. Did you go straight from college to law school, from law school to Wild Gotchall, and then never take any breaks along the way?

Ginny Johnson (03:36.541)

That is the case, which I don't necessarily recommend, but in my case that was what I did and it worked out fine. But you know, I think that folks that take not a break, but work between undergrad and law school or you know, detours, if you will, to explore other interests along the way of your educational journey is not a bad thing. In my case I did go straight through. In fact I did undergrad in three years, so if I could go back I would have you know stayed longer and had a bit more fun. but I I went through

quickly and yes, my career up until the recent past has been pretty linear with, you know, one job to the next with very few or no breaks in between.

Stephen Seckler (04:17.292)

Now you you began in New York and then you ended up in Boston. Wha how would you describe the difference in the legal communities at that time that you made that transition?

Ginny Johnson (04:27.356)

Well, I guess what I would say about of course New York is a vastly larger city, so there are just so many more lawyers, people, businesses. Boston is also a big city, but you know, not the same scale of New York in terms of the size of the profession and therefore the opportunities and network. Boston people tend to know each other more. It's a little more tight knit. when I kind of when I transferred to the Boston office of while I didn't have much of

a network at all in Boston. I grew up in New England, so I have roots here, but I went through college quickly and then moved to New York and didn't have a deep professional network in Boston. So I was really starting from scratch when I made that transition and I you know I realized it while I was still working as an associate at Wild that my entire life and career had really been inside the firm, inside the New York office.

And that was a turning point for me in realizing, you know, I need to work harder or incorporate more consciously effort to expand my network in Boston and get to know more lawyers, more business people, more contact in the local community. you know, years later now I would say it's a great asset that I have a tremendous network in New York and in Boston. I know a lot of people in both cities which feels really

good to have those networks to tap. but it it took some conscious effort when I made that geographic move to start kind of over again to develop new relationships in in this area.

Stephen Seckler (05:59.534)

A lot of people that I talk to and a lot of people that I'm sure are listening to this podcast, they think about going in house. So how did you how did you make your first move in house?

Ginny Johnson (06:11.014)

Well, like a lot of things in my career and probably many careers, this story has to do with some luck, some timing and putting good timing, putting yourself in the right place to have some luck come your way. I I say all of that because I was intrigued probably for several years about the idea of maybe going in house, which is not always easy to do and especially as a litigator, it's a less common path to leave many years of litigation practice and find an in house role that is not a litigation.

role there just fewer of those in house. So from what I can see it's more typical to see a maybe four to six year associate that's coming from a transactional practice go in house to a client or into a corporation. I was interested in it, but, you know, continuing to do my thing as a litigator at Weil and then at Prince Lobel and it was just through talking to people in my network, which I know we're gonna talk about a lot here during this episode, is networking and how to go about it and

how to expand your network, how to leverage it. I started chatting with people during my time at Prince Lobel about what they were doing in their careers. And it was an old friend that I reconnected with who's not a lawyer but a finance risk professional that was working inside that Goldman business at the time and knew that the head of legal at the time was looking to bring in a new hire. And

One thing led to another, I that's how I got the introduction to that hiring manager and it ended up becoming a job opportunity.

Stephen Seckler (07:42.145)

Okay, so we could end the podcast now because you've just made the main point. Networking relationships so critical to people's career advancement. And you couldn't have predicted that path, right? Like the way you ended up at the first in house job that you had was deliberate, but it wasn't necessarily linear, right?

Ginny Johnson (08:05.602)

Very much so. I mean I I do a lot of mentoring and I tell people all the time that careers are not linear even if you are someone that has gone from one job to the next without taking a break or a sabbatical, it's often not linear in the sense that not every move is a step up in terms of a higher title, more compensation. Maybe it's a lateral move to get a different type of experience, maybe it's even

taking a step backward for a time in terms of a more junior title or less compensation in order to put yourself in a larger business or a different industry. So there's all these trade-offs involved in evaluating new opportunities. Every transition I've made in the roles I kind of ticked through a few minutes ago, all of those, except for my first job at WILE, which I got through on campus interviewing as a law student, every job after that

was because of a person in my network who introduced me to someone in their network who knew that there was a need maybe for someone with my skill set. So th that was all of the moves I've made and I think that will continue to be the case, especially today in the age of AI, it is a reality that people are using AI to generate their resume. Someone on the other side is using AI to evaluate the submissions and there's not always a human

in that loop and you hear a lot of people say that they send, you know, something in or apply for a role and they don't hear back, they don't get a yes or a no. Th it's because we're dealing with bots in a lot of cases. And so knowing a person inside an organization who can submit your resume on your behalf or at least give you the inside scoop on what's going on in the company, maybe put in a good word to HR, talent acquisition, that

goes a tremendously long way in increasing your odds to being visible for an opportunity. So I can't stress that enough. You have to know people, you have to talk to people, let them know what you're looking for and hop you know, that's how you leverage your network.

Stephen Seckler (10:07.318)

It seems like you were at three very different types of companies, maybe different stages, different industries. Am I getting that right?

Ginny Johnson (10:16.39)

Yeah, that's definitely true. Through three industry pivots, different sectors and very different types of companies in terms of privately held versus publicly traded and size and scale.

Stephen Seckler (10:28.908)

What was the biggest learning curve that you underwent in terms of the substance of your job?

Ginny Johnson (10:36.476)

I guess a couple things come to mind, but maybe the first one is the move from private practice in-house is a very steep learning curve. I I would venture to guess for anyone, maybe except for folks that are going in-house to a client that they've already been working with. That might be a less steep learning curve. But I think the skills that you acquire in a law firm in terms of how to conduct research or diligence and being extremely thorough and the way you write and the way you communicate to law firm partners.

and clients is very different than the communication style that is a recipe for success inside a business when you're communicating via email or verbally with a CEO, a CFO, board members. so getting inside and learning the the inside and out of one business rather than in private practice, you know, kind of knowing the law but knowing less about the particular client's business you're working for, that's a major shift. That's a mind shift.

making your communication more effective, often more succinct, more greater impact in terms of having a point of view. People inside a business do not appreciate lawyers who hedge every answer and who say it depends or don't take a position. So I think I I learned that in those I guess early months and years of being an in house lawyer, you really do have to

have some backbone in terms of having a recommendation. Of course you can caveat it and say there are things you don't know and it might not be the only answer, but people appreciate a lawyer that has a recommendation and an opinion grounded in research as opposed to, you know, we could do this or that and not really expressing a view. So those are among the first things that come to mind as learning curves. I think also moving into a public company

For the first time, so Schneider is a public company, but French and a very different structure and governance and way of doing things as a a European business, and then moving into Aspen, which is a US based small cap publicly traded company. Those are skills that I you know had a lot of in my toolkit, but there are things you deal with day to day once you're inside the business that are different and that you need to learn in terms of making disclosure judgment calls and dealing with, you know.

Ginny Johnson (12:52.078)

insider trading, you know, blackout periods and exceptions to that and just things that you wouldn't necessarily deal with the nuts and bolts of in such a practical way as outside counsel.

Stephen Seckler (13:04.75)

What do think a litigator brings to an in house role, especially when they're not dealing with litigation, when they're dealing with more regulatory matters, contracts, transactions?

Ginny Johnson (13:17.414)

Yeah. I mean I I think it's a tremendously advantageous skill and asset to have in the sense that you are trained to anticipate risk and disputes and structure things in a way that hopefully avoids disputes before they occur, let alone you know being able to help resolve them on once they are percolating. so I think, you know, bringing that mindset to shaping the terms of a transaction.

y commercial contracting, licensing, employment matters, just having real context around having seen things go sideways and what it's like to, you know, take depositions and argue motions in court and the trade offs and decisions around settling claims, it's a val a very valuable skill set I think to have for someone that moves into a transactional role.

Stephen Seckler (14:10.19)

What about practicing in private practice before going in house? What do you think about that combination?

Ginny Johnson (14:17.148)

You know, I I certainly think it's an excellent training ground, although there's so many questions and things we can talk about here in terms of what is happening with the apprenticeship model now and going forward as a result of how AI is transforming the the practice and the profession. So we should talk about that. but in my case I think it was an amazing training ground. I loved my time at Weill. Of course it was a lot of hard work and hours, and we all know the drill with that working at Big Law.

but you really learn how to think, how to have, you know, the highest standard of excellence when it comes to your work product and client expectations. So I I would absolutely do it all again. I would also say I think that it's becoming more of a trend or a little more commonplace to see than we used to see at least, law students going directly into corporate careers and not necessarily joining law firms as a first stop on the career train.

So I I think law school tends to funnel people into a litigation path because it's kind of how law and case law is taught is in an adversarial context. So a lot of people move toward litigation because it's the default. And similarly, people move toward law firm private practice because it's kind of feels like the expectation when you're in law school less so than going to a corporate, a non profit, a clerkship, whatever.

but I I I've hired people in my in house roles who were coming straight out of law school. That was sometimes viewed as a bit of a risk because what training do they have? Well, I think if you see that someone is, you know, highly intelligent and hard working and a good problem solver and a roll up your sleeves and figure it out type of person, it might be a great hire to bring in someone who's fresh out of school because you can really train them in exactly the way you, you know, are doing things inside that business.

so I'm I'm open minded to both paths. I know there are you know more senior folks out there that really like to see someone coming from private practice for a few years before hiring them into an in-house role. But I really think it can work both ways. It just depends on is the person in a continuous learning mindset and really there to you know, hone the craft.

Stephen Seckler (16:30.158)

We're a risk averse lot and in May twenty twenty five you decided that you were gonna take a break. So what were some of the thoughts that went through your mind and what concerns did you have about taking a sabbatical?

Ginny Johnson (16:30.438)

Yeah.

Ginny Johnson (16:46.45)

So I will say it was a decision that I made not lightly. I thought about it for several months before I decided to depart aspen and not immediately walk into a new role and how would I use that time? How would it be perceived? What are the optics of that? It was also at a time, you know, right now, this year and last year, lots of people are staying in jobs because there's a lot of uncertainty and volatility and

fear that people have around leaving a role whether they might otherwise like to leave or not. So people are staying in place because of these uncertain times and I was aware of that as well. You know, would this be a decision that, you know, maybe I'll be out of the market longer than I would have liked, or what kind of opportunities will I find on the other side of this? So of course all those questions that anyone I think would ask, I asked myself

At the end of the day, this break came after twenty-three years of working straight through. I have developed I think the confidence to know that I deserve to take that time to reflect and really think about how am I going to be best utilized in a business or for clients with the skills I've developed and to give myself the refreshment and the step back to

gain that perspective, restore my health, get some sleep, focus on fitness, nutrition. I've spent a lot of time really working on some goals in that area in the last year and developing consistency around those habits. And I think that, you know, anyone who can do that, it just makes you a better family member, a better friend, a better worker because you're taking care of yourself. So I've really prioritized that. and I traveled a lot, which was a priority for that time as well. And it was

An absolute blessing to to have the opportunity to spend more time with my husband, with friends, and explore some parts of the world and you know, think deeply about what do I want to do next. So I you know, I gave myself permission that it might take I didn't know how much time. I thought maybe it would be I th I hoped at least three months. I thought maybe six months, and six months turned into more like nine months, and then I found myself getting involved in some

Ginny Johnson (19:03.182)

interesting opportunities that came along as a result of the networking I was doing, which I know we'll talk about. And I guess I think of it now, s several months later, I kind of made a soft landing out of the sabbatical because I started gobbling up some projects, different you know, advisory opportunities, a non profit board committee I joined, mentoring, which I continue to be active with and

Putting together this portfolio of things that started keeping me busy and that was percolating along as I continued to talk to companies about GC roles, talk to law firms about maybe going back to private practice. And all of that is what led me to this point where I I recently joined outside GC. I'm really excited about it. I think it's exactly the type of work that this moment calls for and that I'm excited about, which is once again you know working with different clients across sectors.

and still being able to get very deeply immersed in their businesses as either a fractional an interim or a strategic advisor, but doing that in a way that is using AI, leveraging the kind of senior level judgment that comes with twenty plus years of experience. And so that's the the move I've made recently is really the result of all of the thinking, reflection and conversations that I had with a lot of people over the last year.

Stephen Seckler (20:24.835)

When you decide to take this break, how did other lawyers react?

Ginny Johnson (20:29.712)

You know, I think it's funny. It was a mixed bag of reactions, although the most of the reactions that I heard were excitement and even some people jokingly saying out how jealous they were because who wouldn't love to take a few months off. So, you know, I'm also sure that I didn't hear some of the honest reactions that people might have thought and kept to themselves of wow, you know, how is she doing that? Or this seems like a bad moment in the world to do that, or wow, that's really risky. I I don't know what people honestly

might have thought that you know that they didn't express to me, but certainly my, you know, circle of folks that I know expressed a lot of support, enthusiasm, excitement to see what I would do with that time. And I'd like to think that maybe I've inspired a few people to at least consider what it could look like for them. You know, not not everyone can take a break of that duration or a break at all, but it it doesn't mean you can't think about structuring your life and your

your professional and personal life in a maybe slightly different way that would enable you to pursue some passions or achieve better work-life integration.

Stephen Seckler (21:37.519)

What some of the health related things that you did that you particularly enjoyed and also what are some of the places you visited that you're really glad that you got to go visit?

Ginny Johnson (21:49.341)

Sure. So I was I was lifting weights and boxing before I took this sabbatical, but I got really even more invested in both of those activities during meaning just literally able to spend more time going to the gym, so going to more classes, working out.

more frequently different types of workouts, different kind of challenges I set for myself, milestones along the way. But those were things I've been involved with on and off for for years. It was just a matter of being able to increase the intensity because of more time, more rest, more recovery. I also do a lot of hiking. I j I have a dog and I actually just got a new puppy, which I'm very excited about. So now I have two dogs and two cats at home, but I do a lot of hiking with my dog. So

You know, these are and really being mindful about nutrition. I I try to eat a healthy diet. Of course there's always indulgences along the way when you're on a trip or out, you know, out for a special occasion. But I just think the older we all get and no matter how old you are, it's never too early to start caring. You really have to take care of your body. We only get one body and there are things that might happen out of our control, but there is so much we can do to control our health and our health span.

so just getting smarter about women's health, nutrition, lifting. I read several, you know, books in this these on these topics that I would recommend. Peter Otia has a great book called Outlive. So yeah, I spent a lot of time and energy on making improvements there in that part of my life. in terms of travel

I went to a lot of great places, mostly in Europe, the Caribbean and all over the US. I still haven't made it to Japan, which is at the top of my list for a next big trip. but I let's see, of my favorite places, I went to so many great places, but I went to the island of Ischia, which is in Italy. It's kind of a sister island to Capri and that was a very remarkable experience. I love Italy. I had been to the country before, but not to this island.

Ginny Johnson (23:55.379)

And it was beautiful. I actually went to a leadership retreat there while I was there. So met some great people, but the food, the activities, and d I I can't recommend it enough. So that was my favorite place.

Stephen Seckler (24:09.049)

Okay. I'll put it on the list.

Ginny Johnson (24:11.666)

Put it on your list. It's not a y it's a journey. You have to fly into either Rome or Naples and then take a a ferry from Naples over to the island. So it's a lot of travel but it's exquisite.

Stephen Seckler (24:24.367)

You know, you didn't really mention this, although I think you sort of said it implicitly. But I I love the term health span. I learned that a couple of years ago when I first started coaching senior lawyers on what they want to do in their next stage. And the concept for anyone listening that isn't familiar with there's lifespan, how long you're gonna live, but health span is how long you're going to live and still be able to function in a healthy way, how long you basically stay healthy if I could dumb it down. And

You know, it it's really something that as you get older it's something really to be thinking about. Like how much more time do I have where I can enjoy traveling? And and I encounter a lot of lawyers that just they they don't have the imagination or maybe some of them don't have the the financial wherewithal, although most of them probably do and don't admit it. but

You know, it's great that you did this when you have plenty of hopefully lifespan left and hopefully plenty of health span. So, you know, good good for you.

Ginny Johnson (25:30.352)

I hope. I mean, it's never too early and it's never too late is what I say to friends of any age, and I do wish that I had started some of these commitments in an even more consistent way when I was that much younger, because of course you just build on your strength the more consistent you are. weightlifting is so important for everything. Muscle, your bone density, it just improves quality of life, your metabolism. So I'm a big evangelist for sure. And you know, the that's

I'm I'm in my late forties and I hopefully do have a long life and a lot of health ahead of me. But I'm aware of it that at some point I won't be able to do the things physically that I can do today and even certain travel that it might be rigorous or challenging. Like I don't want to save it all until the very end, whenever that is. I feel this way about my health and I feel this way about money. I I want yes, I I wanna have make sure I have enough left at the end, but what is enough if you're not you know, you have to enjoy it

while you can as well. So this idea of taking a sabbatical at a point that you might still have ten or twenty years left ahead of you to work or who knows how long. I'm not sure that I'll ever fully retire. I want to be doing a portfolio of things always, but hopefully, you know, on my schedule and on my terms. So that's you know, don't save it all. Don't save all of your energy and all of your time and all of your money for someday when you think that you're going to be free of

you know, what whatever burdens you have today because that day might not come and you might not enjoy it as much if you wait too long.

Stephen Seckler (27:05.433)

Right, or not to get morbid, but no none of us know how long we're gonna be here. Forget about the health, you know.

Ginny Johnson (27:05.649)

Yeah, yeah.

Ginny Johnson (27:11.292)

None none of us know how long we're gonna be here. And you know, I'll I'll add something very personal here. I mean I I don't know if I felt this way about life to the extent that I do now before I lost both of my parents and my grandmother, and others very close to me over the course of my thirties. And those were major painful lessons but also wake up calls about what is really

important. I just think I I think anyone I talk to who's been through a lot of loss or illness and grief shares some version of this kind of realization that you know not sweating the small stuff is a very real key to happiness in life. So we all get tripped up every single day on petty things that we shouldn't care about. But in general, if you can kind of stay the course of, you know, your family, your close friends, your health, and enjoying your work.

you know, just trying to have a a well balanced life and not trip over too much what are people saying about me? What are people thinking about me? That lawyers are very concerned with optics and there's a reason for that. We need to be chosen and engaged by clients. We have our reputations to uphold. We need to care to some degree what people think of us professionally. But I think a lot of people care way too much about what other people think and that's what's stopping them from

taking a risk, taking a new position, taking a break, pursuing a new hobby, whatever it is. So I guess that would be one of my messages is just care about what's important and realize that a lot of the stuff day to day is just noise.

Stephen Seckler (28:56.313)

Yeah, it's a great great message. All right, let's jump into one of the main themes of why I wanted to interview you, the the sabbatical and and your and your tour. So can you say a little something about that, your listening tour?

Ginny Johnson (29:11.866)

Yeah. So this is I wrote this paper which you referenced. There's a link to it on my LinkedIn. It's a self published paper and it it was merely a passion project that ended up sort of taking on a life of its own into something more of a laborious research paper it ended up being. But that was the result of a lot of conversations, over five hundred with hundreds of people.

That I started talking to coming out of my travel time and starting to think about what do I really want to do next. And I'll say I realized months into it that I was defaulting to the assumption when I first left Aspinero Gels and took a what I thought would be a few months break. I was just assuming that I would go straight into another general counsel role. although I was, you know, leaving the option open in my mind, maybe I'll discover or learn something different, and it won't be that. But I was certainly assuming that that was going to be the path. This is what I've

Done. This is kind of the path I've been on. Maybe I'll do one more big role like this and then embark on building a portfolio career. so that's how this began. My listening tour was starting to set up calls with people I know, many fellow lawyers, fellow general counsel, law firm partners. I know some folks that are CEOs, CFOs, people on boards, and

talking to them about what jobs are out there, what are you hiring for, what skill sets are you looking for, what are these jobs paying? 'Cause everything is evolving very rapidly now with how AI is impacting staffing and how peop job descriptions and skill sets needed for these in-house roles. And I started getting really intrigued about the different things I was hearing from people in very different pockets, you know, talk law firm partners in different cities, venture capital folks in different cities.

mentees that I talked to that you know, coming out of different schools, just gathering all these data points. What are people seeing about the market? But it was in the context in the early days of, you know, as a job seeker, thinking about what does this mean for me in terms of what corporation I may join next and what is needed in i th these roles. So I kept doing that. I I think part of good networking is always asking the people you're talking to who else in their network maybe should you talk to or who could you introduce me to? So that

Ginny Johnson (31:27.068)

creates this flywheel effect when you're really actively in that mode of expanding the ecosystem of who you're talking to. And that just continued to happen. Lots of very generous, you know, great friends of mine said, I think you should talk to this person and I'd like to introduce you to this person. And probably at least a couple of hundred conversations into it, I was already, you know, far down this path. I was just kind of doing it methodically like each day. It's like, let me talk to three or four people today or the X number of people this week.

to gather perspective about what's out there. They started, you know, adding up and a few couple hundred into it, I thought, well, this is unique that I'm having access to this d diverse range of different types of people that all have some touch point to legal services, whether they're a lawyer in-house or law firm, whether they're a buyer of legal services because they're a business person who's hiring lawyers.

And that's how the paper came to be is I thought, you know, th this information that's living in my mind will be stale in short order as the world continues to change rapidly around us. But for this moment in time, this is interesting that I've kind of canvassed the market in this, you know, such a diverse way of talking to this number of different people. Let me put down what I think I'm hearing. What what does this mean for us as GCs?

as lawyers at law firms, as early career lawyers who are seeking jobs amidst all this kind of AI, you know, optimism and doom and, you know, existential threats we're hearing about. so that's that's how the paper came to be.

Stephen Seckler (33:03.343)

What were some of the high level themes that came out of your paper and what do they say about practicing law and how the practice of law is changing and how you see it continuing to change?

Ginny Johnson (33:17.36)

I mean one of the themes is for sure the fact that the mandate of the general Counsel has just so significantly expanded over the last several years and I would say in particular since the pandemic and now because of AI as well. It's just if you talk to a lot of G Cs what you'll hear them say in different ways is that they are responsible for this ever increasing

complex landscape of risks that often don't have anything to do with purely giving legal advice. It's ethics and compliance, it's government relations, it's sustainability, it's enterprise risk. Now it's AI governance, it's being embedded with the product teams and understanding the engineering of the product, you know, th all depending on the industry you're in. So that has a trickle down effect to everyone that lives in the in-house world if the the role, the the remit of the CLO

is broader and broader. And there's good and bad things about that. I mean, if you're a chief legal officer, the fact that you have a seat at the table in the C suite as a strategic advisor is what most people want out of that job because you are in fact doing, you know, work that is far more strategic than simply, you know, dispensing legal, you know, memos. at the same time, I don't know any in house lawyer or any G C that would say they have enough

resources to get done what they need to accomplish in that role. But that's where AI makes this fascinating is how much now can you relegate to either tools or automation and how does that reshape the amount of and skill set of the people that you need as well on your team. So I think all of that is very much shifting, you know, in in real time right now. So that's, you know, a trend, I guess. I think that's a trend that's been going on for years and it's just ratcheting as we speak.

another thing I pointed out in the paper that I think is very interesting, and I think I'm gonna be writing more about this in the coming weeks and months, is what I'm calling the advisory economy and in particular the role of senior women in that. So what I mean by that is and and what I'm doing now at OGC is some version of this. This all led me to this path.

Ginny Johnson (35:30.182)

We're in a time right now where if you have a lot of experience and a robust network and tools at your disposal, which we all do, c Claude, name and name your favorite one, Harvey, you can do so much more in a different leverage model than what was possible even a year or two ago, let alone five, ten years ago. You don't need a pyramid of associates to accomplish the things on a matter that you once needed those associates for.

Now that's great for someone who'd start wants to go into a solo practice, wants to go to a boutique, wants to do fractional work because the leverage model is very favorable to that senior person who can do that and sell their judgment in a way that is unbundled from the traditional role. That's kinda how I said it in the paper. I think of it as selling your judgment by the slice. I don't need to be a full time G C at one corporation. I don't need to

be live in the leverage pyramid of a traditional law firm to do work on behalf of an array of clients in a way that's economical for them and sell my judgment in a more bespoke tailored way. So that's that's the good and the upside and I think it's very exciting the advisory economy. There are a lot of men doing this too, but women in particular that have, I think, realized that there's a great deal more autonomy and freedom in

either starting your own business or going to a more entrepreneurial platform where you can set your own rates, choose your clients and and choose your own schedule. This all you know, return to office mandates and rigid expectations around in office, like these things all have a relationship to each other. So I think we're gonna continue to see the advisory economy grow for all of these reasons. At the same time, that brings us to maybe the more concerning underbelly of all of this, which is what do you do with the junior people?

that are not necessarily walking into the same sort of training regime that the firms had been offering or entirely different types of roles. If if a corporate team would have been hiring an army of students to do diligence on a deal and now that's not needed because AI is doing the first pass diligence, w what how do we have create roles for those junior lawyers where they're still learning?

Ginny Johnson (37:46.969)

using their time and skills in a way that adds strategic value to the matter without doing the more rote administrative stuff that you know we all did in the past. How do you modify the apprenticeship model to achieve a better result and make sure that AI improves our profession and improves our lives rather than creates more adversity. So

I don't purport to have the answers to all of those questions, but part part part of the paper was examining like where are we with even identifying that these are the questions and that we have to work together as GCs, as law firm partners, law schools need to very much get in the discussion on this with employers. I think the law schools, I'm I I I I'm not part of academia, but I can see that different schools have adopted different policies and guidelines around either prohibiting AI or

Stephen Seckler (38:11.281)

huh.

Ginny Johnson (38:37.82)

trying to not incorporate it into the the curriculum and almost acting as though it's it's not here and that somehow it's not relevant to what graduates are gonna face day one post law school. I we we're gonna need to change that because I think there's only so far we will get with employers wanting to kind of foot the bill for that on the job training that needs to take place. So bringing it into law school curriculum is a must.

I think and we just need to figure out how, what does that look like and how do we make sure that our profession thrives i in this next era.

Stephen Seckler (39:19.044)

I do think we'll figure it out, but not to make this sound any worse, but if you like this is gonna be this is a huge issue long before anybody gets to law school because you and I learned how to write long before we even got to college and then we got to college and then we went to law school. But how is how is somebody in grade school, in high school, gonna learn how to write? So I'm sure that'll be figured out, but it's challenging.

Ginny Johnson (39:45.437)

Yeah. You're you're absolutely right. I mean that's the argument is we're kind of outsourcing thinking and problem solving and ability to write cogently and develop arguments and advocacy. Will will we have the same caliber of learning and retention and comprehension if people are sort of outsourcing those tasks to AI? So yes, we have to figure it out and I'm sure we will too. I think that it's going to be a bumpy ride.

Stephen Seckler (40:14.479)

Especially since the rate of change is is so rapid now. There's not as much time as there have been in other areas of technological change for for the adaptation.

Ginny Johnson (40:24.764)

That's that's the game changer of this. I think AI it it's analogous to many other technologies that have, you know, changed the game in terms even remember conversations we were having not that long ago about migrating to the cloud and before that the advent of email and moving away from paper. There were lots of these same arguments with all of those transitions. The difference with this is the velocity and the breadth of rapid change that

is not giving us enough time as a society and as a profession to pump the brakes a little bit and figure out what's what's best.

Stephen Seckler (41:02.639)

Okay, so we're getting close to the end here. just to pick up on that theme a little bit, what is left for lawyers? There's judgment, right?

Ginny Johnson (41:12.996)

Exactly. Yep. I mean that well, that's the key. And we just talked about the how do we get to the point where we're cultivating our talent to ensure that judgment and strategic thinking are still being learned. we'll, you know, continue figuring that out. But I think what's left for lawyers and certainly lawyers that have been practicing up you know up to this point for several years and have the experience and the judgment, it's exactly that. So what clients are seeking is

someone that can take a look at maybe an output that was generated much more quickly using AI than what it would have been without AI, but does that mean that it is comprehensive, correct, accurate, or, you know, the right answer? That's where the lawyer, the supervisor, comes in to say what did it miss? What does it not know about the context? It's the context layer.

And this is the scary thing about more junior people not necessarily having the training and supervision is they won't know that the output is missing something or an incorrect answer. So that's what we need to solve for. But I think you know, on an optimistic note, lawyers that have been practicing for a long time and can now utilize these tools to expedite the the more administrative parts of a task, whether that's quickly generating some slides for a board meeting or generating a memo.

without the time it would take to iterate, you know, through ten prior drafts. You can have things at your fingertips now in minutes that would have taken many hours, but then you still need to spend the time to massage it, perfect it, ensure that it is what the client needs, that it is correct and holistic, and that's where ultimately our own strategic thinking and judgment and discernment cannot be replaced. And all and also the the mentorship and the relationship part of it, I mean, clients want

contact with a person who's going to be able to explain and reassure and give c again context to the answer. If people just wanted an answer out of an AI chatbot, they can, you know, skip all of this and not pay lawyers anymore. But I don't I'm sure it is happening in some instances where people are taking shortcuts for budget reasons to get a quick answer out of AI. But I also think that clients are

Ginny Johnson (43:33.116)

happily continuing to engage with their trusted counsel to ensure that the AI work product is correct and that their strategy is sound.

Stephen Seckler (43:45.219)

All right. So to to wrap it up, what career advice would you give to a lawyer who's feeling stuck or uncertain about the future?

Ginny Johnson (43:56.059)

I think you know, work on growing and leveraging your network through it can be very small steps at first if this is something that is intimidating to you or that you don't have a lot of time. it's i it could be one thirty minute conversation a week or even a month. Start somewhere with reaching back to a law school classmate, someone from a prior organization. It could be, you know, any number of people that you've crossed paths with and continue to ask those people, who else should I be talking to? And

You know what I think a mistake a lot of people make is they feel networking is transactional and somehow dirty because you're asking for something or seeking a favor. It it isn't that at all. I I you're you're just merely gathering data, you're e exchanging perspectives. Make yourself helpful to people and offer to invite or in introduce people to to those in your network and o offer a helpful word of advice. I mean, that's

The name of the game and it's very easy to do. And I have found that by being genuinely curious about other people, you end up developing a very broad network of people that want to help you with referrals, with advice, with you know all sorts of things. So that's that's huge. do it early. I think it's something that I I wish I had started even sooner, but you're never too early in your career. I really applaud the law students who I work with that seek out mentors.

From senior among senior people go to our events. I am part of the legal mentor network. I love seeing law students and junior lawyers come to our events and I applaud them because when I was at that y young point in my life, I wasn't doing that. I was just heads down at my desk doing the work, studying. So get yourself out there, meet people, don't be afraid to ask people for advice and to make connections.

And finally I would say to your point about risk aversion, yes, it seems to be a characteristic that many lawyers have, but just know that, you know, no no one is a harsher critic of you than yourself. And if you have a desire to pursue something or to make a change, you have to be the master of your own destiny. So put it to the side what you think other people are going to say and do what your heart of hearts is telling you is best for you.

Stephen Seckler (46:11.386)

Alright, that's just terrific career advice and what a great summary of of networking. I love it. All right, so here's the final question that I like to ask all my guests. what's one movie, streaming, television series or podcast that you would recommend for entertainment purposes?

Ginny Johnson (46:28.924)

Wow, so there's so much content out there, it's overwhelming. I end up watching reruns a lot of the time of something I already know 'cause I can't even decide what new thing to watch. But I did just watch a new show on Hulu called Furious and actually learned about it from a podcast I listened to, so you got a two for there. I listened to a podcast called Pivot with Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway. I really like that podcast. And Kara brought up this show called Furious, on Hulu.

It is basically a a thriller, crime drama and look it up. I don't wanna give anything away, but I found it to be riveting and that's not always my genre, but this one really delivered in terms of keeping me on the edge of my seat episode to episode. I didn't know what they were gonna do next and very thought provoking, great acting and a real thriller.

Stephen Seckler (47:05.267)

huh.

Stephen Seckler (47:22.564)

All right, I'll add that to my list too. And I'm right there with you in terms of watching things and feeling overwhelmed about choosing that sometimes I go back and watch things that I haven't seen in quite a while but appreciate it anew.

Ginny Johnson (47:35.45)

It's comforting. I fun fact about me is every single night I watch an episode of The Golden Girls before I go to bed. And I have seen every season probably twenty five times. I used to watch it with my grandmother and I that's my favorite show.

Stephen Seckler (47:42.661)

Ha ha.

Stephen Seckler (47:49.252)

that's great. Jenny, this has been a great conversation. I I really appreciate you taking the time and I I love you know, it's very inspiring to hear about somebody who's decided to take that break and is now, you know, back in the game. So again, thank you for joining us. If anyone in our audience has follow up questions, how can they reach you?

Ginny Johnson (48:14.428)

I'm on LinkedIn. I'm I'm active on there. Feel free to connect with me and shoot me a message and yeah, I'm happy to connect with anyone who would like to talk more about mentoring or my paper or taking sabbaticals.

Stephen Seckler (48:28.688)

Okay. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please tell others and rate us on iTunes or your favorite podcast app and share it with someone who you think might be interested. And if you're watching on YouTube, please hit the subscribe button. It will help others find us. If you'd like to continue the conversation, I welcome your inquiries and invite you to set up a time to speak with me about your own career or marketing concerns. I've been coaching lawyers for almost thirty years.

And I'm happy to do a free thirty minute consultation. You could sign up on my website at seckler dot com. On my website, you can also find links to more episodes of Counsel to Counsel and get access to many free career marketing and leadership resources. In the meantime, thanks for listening.