Episode 179: A Mission-Driven Legal Career with Tony Waller

Stephen Seckler (00:07.128)
Welcome back everybody. Just a reminder that if you're listening to Counsel to Counsel on one of the audio podcast platforms like Spotify or Apple Podcasts, you could also find us now on YouTube. If you're watching us on YouTube, it's nice to have you here. For many lawyers, a law degree opens doors that go well beyond the traditional practice of law. Some lawyers find their greatest professional satisfaction not in representing clients, but in mentoring others, building organizations, developing programs, and creating opportunities for the next generation.

My guest today is Tony Waller, a lawyer, educator, nonprofit leader, and career development professional whose career reflects the many different ways lawyers can make an impact.

Tony began his career practicing law before moving into recruiting and human resources. He later found his way into law school career development, where he has spent much of his career advising law students and lawyers, building relationships with employers, and helping students launch successful careers. Tony has served in leadership roles at both the University of Georgia School of Law and the University of Illinois College of Law. He also stepped away from higher education to serve as CEO and Executive Director of

of a nonprofit organization, giving him first hand experience leading an organization, fundraising, managing teams, and serving the community.

Tony and I also served together on the Career Center board of the American Bar Association. He has been president of NALP and he has had lots of nonprofit involvement as a volunteer, non lawyer CEO for a nonprofit. Ooh, I have to read that again. Jalko cut that out.

Stephen Seckler (01:49.368)
Tony and I also serve on the Career Center of the American Bar Association. Ooh, that was wrong too. Jalko cut that out.

Tony and I also serve on the board of the Career Center of the American Bar Association. In this episode, we'll talk about Tony's own career journey, careers in law school administration and the nonprofit sector, what makes these roles rewarding, and the skills lawyers bring to mission driven work. We'll also discuss how law students and lawyers can think more broadly about what it means to have a successful legal career. Tony, welcome to Council to Council.

Tony Waller (02:27.926)
Steve, thanks for having me.

Stephen Seckler (02:30.945)
You've had a really interesting career that has included practicing law, recruiting, law school career services, nonprofit leadership, and higher education administration. Before we dive into the lessons you've learned along the way, can you quickly walk us through your career journey and how you ended up doing the work you do today?

Tony Waller (02:48.63)
Yeah, I like almost all careers that you that you truly enjoy, I kinda fell backwards into it. when I graduated from law school I moved to D C area and practiced law and was there up there for seven years. the last couple of years I had the opportunity to work for a start up healthcare and business IT consultancy.

and really what it was is I was going to do a life change, right? I had gotten married, and then after a few years my first wife and I decided to separate and you kinda take stock and it was kind of the first steps towards being you know, kinda thinking critically about what you wanna have your life and your career.

And I realized that if I was ever gonna make a change while I was going through a massive life change, why not explore career changes? And I ended up meeting the the founder of this company who had the year before broken off from a large multinational insurer and decided he he basically saw HIPAA and realized it was a great starting point for a new business model. He grew that business model. I joined him and after two years I realized maybe I can move back to Georgia.

And I reached out to the director of career services at UGA at the time, said, How would you like to see a resume from one of your grads who also has HR experience? And three weeks later I was packing a U-Haul and moving back to Athens.

Stephen Seckler (04:06.893)
How did you make that first decision and how hard was that to decide to leave the practice and how long did it take you to get to that point?

Tony Waller (04:16.182)
Well, I mean, the decision to do it wasn't hard. I built a hundred and nineteen hours in a week and it was like I can't do this. but the reality was is it's part of what I really enjoyed about the practice of law, which is problem solving, helping people, connecting resources with people.

were things that I I thought those were sellable skills that I could take elsewhere and do something else with. I'm functionally, I mean functionally, fundamentally a people person. I love love working with people. I love helping them. And I love problem solving. And those were the sort of things I was good at it when I practiced. and when I sat down and took stock of what I could do, I like literally the question that one of the first questions that the founder of that company asked me was, Can you recruit people? I was like, yeah.

Of course I can. I'm convincing you right now to hire me. I can recruit people, which goes back to a basic tenet I tell students and attorneys, like you have to be able to sell yourself first, right? Attorneys offer a skill set. Attorneys offer time as their inventory. And you have to be in a position at someplace to sell yourself. And that is a you know a basic functional skill for all attorneys. Even if you don't do direct client services, you have to be able to convince someone of your capability.

and and understand what those capabilities are.

Stephen Seckler (05:37.965)
Why do you think that's hard for lawyers?

Tony Waller (05:40.877)
Well, w you know, law school doesn't necessarily teach us we teach us they teach us to advocate, but they don't necessarily teach us th what to advocate about. And we we have a tendency to think of the practice of law attorneys in particular, law students too, but I have a t have a tendency to think of the p the problems as things I need to fix for

I need to fix for people. But the reality is, at least from my perspective, especially working with law students and attorneys going through job or career transitions, is that you also need to be able to have confidence in what you offer, know what you offer, because those are also tool sets that you bring to the table. It's not just your intelligence or available ability to access what section 1983 means in the context of particular set of facts. It also is what do I bring to the table and how can I do those things

to help my client and likewise myself.

Stephen Seckler (06:37.881)
Aside from billing a hundred and nineteen hours in a week, which I don't even know how that's possible, but

Tony Waller (06:44.348)
It was it was it was a long story that involved a document production due to the to D. O. J.

Stephen Seckler (06:51.819)
Wow. Okay. Well now AI would just take care of that. But w what did you like about practice? There must have been something that you actually liked about about practicing law.

Tony Waller (07:00.234)
Okay, I loved helping people. I mean, really, really, really got a lot of joy out of a someone coming to me with a problem, being able to help them with that problem, even if the outcome wasn't what they wanted, and and knowing that I had

move the ball a little bit for them in helping that problem. I mean look, as attorneys people tend to come to us usually on their worst days, right? I mean it's it's rarely people come to us with good problems. If you're a state attorney a state attorney, maybe you get that, but but overall, you know, people come to you with your prob their problems. And

you know, it's taken a decent amount of self reflection and thirty years of of therapy, but I also realized that that I enjoy helping people fix things and fix themselves and all that stuff. And, you know, that's probably probably I should explore a little more about what I'm running from. but also it's fun. I mean I that I jones I jones for that. And but that that also informed my transition. Frankly what I think makes me a fairly good career development officer is that I I like it when a student comes in with a thorny problem.

problem and helping them think through solutions and helping them arrive at a solution that they own and and in being a part of that you know connection of resources or connection of people that allows them to be successful.

Stephen Seckler (08:22.411)
Your first stop you said after practicing was recruiting and human resources. What did that experience teach you about careers, hiring, professional development?

Tony Waller (08:33.846)
Well it it you know, you end up talking to a lot of people who are sniffing around making a change. you know, I w I was working primarily in the the computer programmer s in the pre programming space, a little bit of business professionals, business healthcare healthcare business professionals. But you know, you start figuring out exactly who is serious about making a move and why. And I realized the people that were most successful in making a move as a part of that process were the ones that have been intentional. The people

That had really thought through why they're leaving, not doing so because they had a bad day, or because their boss was a jerk, or because they didn't like the hours. They were simply being thoughtful in a way that frankly I probably wasn't when I transitioned out of the practice of law. But also realizing that the people that were methodical, that took a measured approach, and were at least had a clear idea of what they were looking for and why were the ones that were most successful in that transition.

Yeah.

Stephen Seckler (09:35.693)
Why is that hard for lawyers?

Tony Waller (09:38.091)
You know, it's it's it's funny. I think lawyers, because they happen to be detailed people, they have a hard time seeing the farce for the trees. even even the people that necessarily are bigger picture thinkers, you know, w and frankly part of us we're so busy, right? Attorneys are they are

on, like their mach their brain machine is on a lot. And that requires not just accessing a different part of your brain machine. no I'm saying brain machine, but it's just the pot in my head, but it's also accessing a different part your brain, but it's also using in a way that is not necessarily ingrained in humans. We have a tendency to think about ourselves a lot, but we don't have a th a lot of we don't spend a lot of time thinking about ourselves and what that you know kind of what that means out to the world. It's just we internalize that.

Stephen Seckler (10:33.601)
I think I would add, by the way, that I I think as lawyers we don't like to show our vulnerability. We're smart. We got into law school. Maybe some of us ended up working at a you know, a good law firm and we did it because we worked hard and it was just

the path that we saw, but showing a little vulnerability in the process I think is is hard for lawyers, but also very worthwhile. So would you like to comment on that?

Tony Waller (11:05.834)
Yeah. It and let me let me add to that is that, you know, law school

Law school tries to beat that out of you with through the Socratic method. frankly, we're almost toxic about the practice, right? The show no vulnerability. You can't admit you're wrong. And thankfully that's changing some. That's one of the things I hold a lot of hope about the the newest generation between millennials and gen alphas is that they don't put up with that nonsense. They they explicitly like, no, we we are all failed humans and we you know, part of what we try to teach in law school is that you are going to make mistakes. How

you handle making that mistake is almost like the line from from the line of winner is like it's when the fault is all is left very much what matters right is that you know how you fail how you learn from failing and what you do next after failing says to me a lot more about what you're capable of than how much success you have.

Stephen Seckler (12:03.735)
Let's turn to law school career opportunities. What kind of roles are available in law schools? What skills make lawyers particularly well suited for those roles other than having gone through law school?

Tony Waller (12:16.992)
Yeah, so I think there's a lot of opportunity in law school that people don't think about. you know, one of the things that I'm always trying to encourage people when because I'm you know once once or twice a year I'll get a call from an alum or someone, hey, I'm thinking about I'm thinking about making a transition to higher education, what would you say?

I would think that the and and I I I want I'm gonna remind you to ask me about the pitfalls because there's there's a couple of very specific ones I would encourage people to think about. But you know, whether you're if you are if you're a rainmaker or someone that have rainmaking tendencies, man, you need to be looking at law school advancement. Being able to go out and sell law school and encourage people to make a philanthropic investment. It's just that's your thing. that's not that you couldn't do other things, of course you could. and let's put aside

the the more academic things. Let's

Let's put a pen in clinical instruction, legal right instruction, and things like that. You you probably have a particular academic path that you're already following or should be following. you know, but for you know, the average attorney that is thinking about joining higher education, obviously the career development office, student services are the two things that come to mind immediately. and and look a lot of the skills that make you successful, all you're making you successful doing this. Being able to listen to people, being able to problem solve, being empathetic and helping understand when people are at their

their worst, but also being able to deliver hard information to people in a way that helps them understand that you are looking out for their best interest. And the skill sets that are particularly important for attorneys to bring to that are those like like second level and third level thinking. Because a lot of times law students in particular fall into this path and we see that more speaking of generationally it's like, you know, they have they have followed a particular path.

Tony Waller (14:11.05)
You do these things in high school, you get in this college, you do these things in college and get this score on the LSAT, you go to this law school. And then suddenly you get to law school and it's all the people that filtered up in that funnel, and now they're all in one spot. And we grade on a curve. And law firms and you know, bigger law firms, the most visible law firms, the loudest law firms, they also hire on that curve. It becomes

hard for people to think what's next if suddenly they are shut out because you know they're on the wrong side of a bell curve.

And that's where we that's where we really do value ad for students is helping them get out of the mindset that I have to do the same because there's a pathway and also getting them thinking about their career strategically and not just what they're gonna do August after graduation, but five years down the road or 10 years down the road and how they accomplish that and then what that means for them in the career as they go out in the practice of law. And that's that's what you would do also in the in the student services side, right? You help students navigate

was a very hard and stressful world.

Stephen Seckler (15:18.903)
Let's shift gears. You spent a chunk of time in the nonprofit sector. You were a CEO and executive director. Tell us about that role, what you did, what you liked about it, how you made the shift.

Tony Waller (15:32.311)
Well, it it was one of those things that was right place, right time. we had moved back to Athens and

I was was in job involved in a job search and one of my law school classmates was on the board of this nonprofit. suggested I at least talk with the board and it worked out that they they liked they liked the ideas that I brought to the table. You know, I think the biggest thing the most enjoyable part of that job to me was supporting the people doing the good work, right? And you know, we it we worked in the foster care system, specifically the CASA program. We also had a visitation program, and a couple of

Other educational programs for families involved in in Georgia's foster care system. And we had really capable, really smart, really engaged social workers who were doing the hard work in managing volunteers. I kind of viewed my job as back-end support to make sure they didn't have to worry about their building lights being turned off. They didn't have to worry about being paid. And they were visible in the community in a way that mattered to them. And that was that that a lot of the skill sets you bring is, you know, I did I use as a lawyer.

And

that that were very you know there was a lot of overlay there. and that's one of the things I encourage students and and attorneys who are thinking about what they want out of their careers like look you having a JD b it's not a necessary requirement to be a good executive director or CEO, particularly of a nonprofit or non-governmental organization, but it does demonstrate that you pot you you possess certain skill sets up to and including problem solving and analytical thinking to get problems solved that

Tony Waller (17:09.566)
a lot of organizations face. you know, we we spend time we all spend time trying to figure out what's next. For a nonprofit, that what's next oftentimes really does mean are we gonna be open next year, or are we gonna be able to serve the number of clients we need to serve or we're under-resourced. How do we become better resourced? And doing that was a lot of fun.

Stephen Seckler (17:32.685)
For lawyers who are thinking about the non profit sector, how can they best position themselves for that?

Tony Waller (17:38.913)
I mean, I think the first step is volunteering, right? You you you attorneys naturally are naturally gravitate towards or pulled are pulled towards leadership in the community. That's one of the things we talk about in our lawyering class as an attorney. You you occupy for better or for worse a a special position in your community by virtue of your credentials and how people view you. And that doesn't mean you have to step up, but people will ask you to do so.

And I think it's a hard

It's a harder sell to say, I'm interested in this thing if you've never sat on a board, if you've never, you know, reached out to your friends to support an organization, or you've never volunteered an organization to do work of some sort out in your community. It can be faith-based, it doesn't have to be, but but that volunteerism, I think, is a major piece of that sometimes attorneys forget about. and and the the cool part about that, especially if you're in the private practice of law, that volunteerism for most firms get counted as professional development.

it is, right? You're advertising your services by being a member of the community. Well those are the same skill sets that that make good executives within executives within nonprofits.

Stephen Seckler (18:53.333)
I will add that I'm often encouraging my own clients to think about nonprofit service as a way of building relationships in the business community as a way of building your practice. So whether or not you end up deciding professionally you want to commit to working in the nonprofit sector, it's a great opportunity, assuming you're doing something authentic that you feel committed to, that you can help build your practice that way regardless of what you do.

Tony Waller (19:23.488)
Yeah, and Steve, you s obviously you spent a lot of times with a a lot more time with attorneys who are thinking about career transitions. and I think that's a a great piece of advice that we have a hard time convincing students of that you are you're great at the end of the day, not just on your ability to churn out great copy, you're gonna be great on your ability to go out and do a lot of things, especially if you're working in the private practice of law. One of those things will be visibility in the community.

Stephen Seckler (19:53.902)
We also we underestimate as lawyers how good we are at getting stuff done. I won't use the crass word, but it it's basically amazing to me when I'm I'm out in the community that

People could just talk and talk and talk. Now lawyers can also just talk and talk and talk. We're good at organizing, figuring out how to get to the finish line because that's part of what our job is as lawyers. So those skills are very valuable to the nonprofit sector.

Stephen Seckler (20:28.023)
So speaking of building relationships, can you say a little bit more about networking and relationship building and how that has helped you in your own career?

Tony Waller (20:38.122)
Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I n I never really thought about the concept of networking a whole lot, even though I wasn't a I'm naturally a a a networker until I started the recruiting position because the natural anybody that works in recruiting,

probably knows this and something I learned pretty quick is like, hey, is there anyone else I should talk to? You have any other friends that are currently looking. And it occurred to me that almost everybody who was interested or at least putting their resume out to be considered for a position with our our company had done so because someone else had convinced them that it was worth doing. And that would became a natural a natural thing. Yeah, you just talked so and so because they they've had I've had conversations with them. and what I realized from that is that

Yeah.

A lot of what you want to accomplish can be done if you're intentional about networking without actually particularly in the job search world, without actually ever applying for a job. And that's something we reinforce with students and attorneys. Like, yeah, you can apply to job postings and eventually you probably will find something. But the better way to handle that is just

be a decent human being to others and talk with them and be a genuinely engaged with them because people like helping people they like and when they hear about opportunities they'll reach out or they'll tell you. and that is that was the same thing with fundraising within the community. Right? I mean Athens is a Athens is a a nonprofit rich community and and the people who have who have resources are are stretched.

Tony Waller (22:20.022)
But they are also not unwilling to help people they like or causes they like. They have to know about the causes, one. And two, you have to be able to have a rapport with someone and to be able to ask them, hey, we're doing this thing. Do you mind sponsoring a table? And at that point, it does become semi-transactional. But if if you've built that network and it it never feels that way because it probably isn't.

Stephen Seckler (22:43.329)
What if anything has changed since you became involved in career services?

Tony Waller (22:49.698)
the internet? yeah you know th th so yeah, I kind of my twenty sixth year or sorry in tw in two thousand at UGA. I would say the biggest thing that has changed is is ready access to students of information.

And that's a great thing. Our students are so much more informed about what's going on. I I'm a first generation college student. and you know, when I went to law school in in nineteen ninety, you know, basically everything was on books. We typed out letters. I mean, I remember the first cover letter I printed out on a dot matrix printer.

And then we found the law school bought a laser printer my last year. Law school was amazing. We immediately broke it, but it's fine. but you know, but so the access to technology is the big thing. And and the other part about that, I would say, and and let me put in a plug here for resources like NALP and resources like the ABA Career Center, is is the is the access to experts

because we have ready access to information. makes it I mean it can be transformative. When I started, you know, I I could always email someone who was a NALP, but the reality was is I didn't know much about them unless their law school happened to have a bio about them on the website or their law firm happened to have a bio about them on the website. Their entire resource databases that I can have it never leave my desk or for that matter, leave my deck because I

have a you know I have an iPad or not iPad because I don't use Apple, but you know, a a a pad device that I can get online immediately or my phone get online immediately and learn a great deal about someone's career. That's that immediately makes students better consumers of information. It makes them

Tony Waller (24:42.018)
crazy because it is overmission information overload. But I would rather someone have access to and work with them and trying to figure out what that looks like than trying to brainstorm on resources that all involve you need to go to the law library.

Stephen Seckler (25:01.549)
For lawyers who are unhappy in their their current role but don't know what else they could do, how would you suggest they begin exploring their options?

Tony Waller (25:11.744)
I think the first thing I do is explore what you're not happy about. And and be and be critical, really thoughtfully critical about that. I oftentimes will see attorneys pop up who

you know, as students you kinda got a sense they weren't really happy with what they were doing, but they were pursuing it because it's what they thought they should pursue. And they turn around and make the same mistake, right? They they they jump from one place to another because they think they have to have a certain salary or they have to be doing this certain kind of law or they have to be this kind of employer

So my my piece of advice is really be self-critical and thoughtful about what it is you're not happy about and why. What you control that you can fix. because if not, oftentimes you'll just bump from one place to another because we also have a tendency to do what's easy and what's easy is what you already know.

Stephen Seckler (26:04.993)
I will add that there's lots of resources available to help you do some self-assessment. As Tony mentioned, the ABA website specifically, both of us are on the Career Center board. Lots and lots of resources there. There's actually also a a one L toolkit on the ABA website, which is great. And I have lots of resources on my own website. And then the other piece of it I will add is

Don't feel like you have to do everything by yourself. You can go back to your law school, talk to people like Tony, you could talk to other lawyers in the community who've maybe made some kinds of transitions, or you could hire a coach if that feels like the right way to go.

Stephen Seckler (26:53.175)
Tony, looking back at your own career, what advice would you give your younger self?

Tony Waller (27:00.578)
wow. That's a great question, Steve. I would probably advise myself that it is okay and probably smart to not necessarily feel like you have to advance at a certain rate.

That you the I and when I say that, and I do not regret my time going to the University of Illinois at all. I think it was it was transformative for me and I learned an awful lot. But looking back on it, having been assistant dean at the University of Georgia now for six years, I I was probably in over my head, especially the first couple of years. And i by the time I figured that out,

Which which did help inform how I approached my my f my following jobs. By the time I figured that out, it was it just h s substantially harder for me just to because I I I

I had to learn on the fly. I didn't I I didn't basically have training wheels in in learning how to to run an office or manage people or you know, all the myriad of things that come with being, you know, a leader of a department at a law school. And likewise, I would encourage attorneys, and I tell students this all the time, it's like, it's okay if you're three or four years in and still not managing cases by yourself. That's fine. You may be asked to do so, and that's great. Don't be afraid to ask for help if that's the case, if you need help.

But also f your career is very long, that's not a dot, and there's no one other than you really keeping score. So if if you don't hit a certain benchmark at a certain point when you think you should, evaluate why that is and really think about whether or not that's good or good or bad or indifferent for you.

Stephen Seckler (28:46.999)
Tony, we're we're kind of at the end here. I was gonna ask you what final advice you would give lawyers and law students who want meaningful work but aren't sure where they fit. But I think you just answered that question, right? Is there anything else that you wanna add to that?

Tony Waller (28:58.178)
Well I mean I think I I would add two things. If you're a law student, talk to your career development office. We are we are here to help you. I and I realize that and having said that, I I realized that I was the student that probably

Would not go to my career development office, but fortunately the the with the one person we're in the office when I was in law school dragged me in and and he he was super helpful for me. and and it likewise as a lawyer, don't be afraid to ask for help. Go do opportunities, go to bar association meetings, join the ABA, join your local bar if it's not mandatory, join your city bar, go to meetings. There are people that are there to help. There's one thing I know about attorneys, they love talking about themselves.

And they'd love to feel like they help people. So don't be afraid to use that.

Stephen Seckler (29:47.448)
Great advice. Okay. Here's the last question that I ask all my guests. What is one movie, streaming, television series or podcast that you would recommend? And this is for entertainment purposes. And I will add before you answer the question that you're not allowed to include your own podcast, which is on athletics, college athlet collegiate athletics. But why don't you just for two seconds say something about that podcast? Because it sounds like a lot of fun.

Tony Waller (30:13.44)
Yeah, I do we're on our the the starting of twelfth season now. I have started a podcast or started a podcast in two thousand fifteen with a couple of local buddies, Will Leach and Scott Duball, called Waiting Since Last Saturday. It's about Georgia athletics. you find us wherever you find podcasts. But I I really struggle with this one 'cause there there is a it's kind of niche, but it's a podcast I was thinking about. But my wife and I have been watching Shrinking This Summer, which is on Apple Plus.

It's probably Harrison Ford's best role since Witness. It's just really well done. Not the biggest Jason Siegel fan, but he does fine in it. But the rest of the characters are just well written, it's funny, it's witty. It's a little suicami and despite Ted McGinley being in the show, it has survived.

Stephen Seckler (30:58.477)
I I love that show. Which character is that, Ted McGinley?

Tony Waller (31:03.258)
the he is the neighbors he's a der one of the derricks. He's the neighbors Yeah, one of the Derks. He's he's married to Christina Miller, yeah.

Stephen Seckler (31:07.721)
one of the Dereks. yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. well I think he's a I think he's a great character. Yeah, Jason Siegel, mm, he's good, but the character is could be kind of annoying.

Tony Waller (31:19.074)
Yeah, I just wanna shake him and yeah. He's Mr. Bad Decisions, but it's fun.

Stephen Seckler (31:25.099)
He is Mr. Bad Decisions, that's for sure. Tony, this has been a great conversation. Thanks so much for joining us. I look forward to continuing to collaborate with you on the board. If anyone in our audience has follow up questions, how can they reach you?

Tony Waller (31:39.116)
Feel free to reach out to me. You can find me at the University of Georgia School of Laws website. And my email address is tweller at uga.edu.

Stephen Seckler (31:49.855)
And I encourage everybody to do that. Tony's very generous with his time. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please tell others and rate us on iTunes or your favorite podcast app and share it with someone who you think might be interested. And if you're watching on YouTube, please hit the subscribe button. It will help others find us. If you'd like to continue the conversation, I welcome your inquiries and invite you to set up a time to speak with me about your own career or marketing concerns. I've been coaching lawyers for almost thirty years.

And I'm happy to do a free thirty minute consultation. You could sign up on my website at seckler.com. That's S E C K L E R dot com. On my website, you could also find links to more episodes of Council to Council and get access to many free career marketing and leadership resources. In the meantime, thanks for listening.