Episode 172: Are You Setting Proper Boundaries With Clients and Colleagues? | Strategies for Attorneys

Stephen Seckler (00:05.885)
Welcome back everybody. Just a reminder that if you are listening to Council to Council on one of the audio platforms like Spotify or Apple Podcasts, you could also find us now on YouTube. If you're watching us on YouTube, it's nice to have you here.

As lawyers, we are trained to be responsive, analytical, and relentlessly committed to solving problems. Those qualities serve our clients well, but they can also make it difficult to set healthy boundaries with clients, partners, and with work in general. This can have a very negative impact on our mental health. So what can we do about that? Here to discuss this is Gary Miles. Gary is a veteran trial lawyer, managing partner, author, and success coach.

He has more than four decades of experience in the legal profession. Gary's author of the book Breaking Free, a guide for lawyers wanting to leave the law, and he hosts the Free Lawyer podcast where he explores how lawyers can build more fulfilling and sustainable careers. He writes a lot about these and other topics, and I highly recommend that you follow him on LinkedIn. I've also had the honor of being a guest on Gary's podcast, so it's a real pleasure to have him join me today.

talk about boundaries, burnout, and what it means for lawyers to redefine success. Thanks so much for joining me today, Gary.

Gary Miles (01:24.276)
Steve, thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to our conversation. You know, I think the world of you and the service you give to lawyers around the country.

Stephen Seckler (01:33.841)
Lots of mutual appreciation society. Gary, you've had what many lawyers would consider an incredibly successful career. You had numerous trial victories. You've been in leadership roles and decades in practice. Yet you've spoken about feeling dissatisfied. What was going on beneath the surface?

Gary Miles (01:54.018)
I guess it was a combination of things. did litigation. I was very focused too often on the outcome and lived in fear of that next loss that would jeopardize my practice, jeopardize my reputation. I was very conscious of how I was perceived by others in the legal community and by clients.

And I also struggled with perfectionism. It in many ways drove me to be very, very successful academically and then successful in my career. But it was based on fear, fear of judgment, fear of failure, a whole myriad of fears. And those combined, and they were all self-created. I'm responsive, no one did them to me.

And I think they create a lot of stress and anxiety for me.

Stephen Seckler (02:57.562)
At what point did you begin to realize that the traits that made you successful as a lawyer were also contributing to burnout?

Gary Miles (03:05.762)
You know, I don't know if there was, it was a process more than an event, continued experiences. I remember particularly that I handled a plaintiff's, most of my work was on the defense side, defending trucks and truck drivers, but I had the privilege of being able to handle other cases that I wanted to, and I did a little bit of plaintiff's employment law. I handled this case.

For a wonderful client who worked for a large company in Maryland and was fired and we claimed it was AIDS discrimination, I thought it was a very, very good case. The other side filed a copious motion for summary judgment. I drafted what I thought was an excellent opposition brief. Clearly there were questions of intent, but yet the judge granted summary judgment. And I remember being absolutely crushed and devastated and

hated letting my client down. And it haunted me for years, feeling like I failed her. Then I was in a mediation a couple years later with a magistrate judge I knew quite well. And I told him that story. And he said, that judge has granted summary judgment to every employer in every employment case he has ever been assigned to.

And then it dawned on me that while I was beating myself up for somehow being a failure and inadequate, the reality was it kind of didn't matter what I did in light of that fact. And that made me realize that my focus on outcome, which in this case, the outcome was a failure, instead of when my preparation, my effort, my diligence was really completely misplaced. And that helped me to realize I needed to be in a different.

place mentally and how I evaluated who I was and how I was doing.

Stephen Seckler (05:05.916)
I know that high performing athletes think this way. They think about what's happening in the moment. They're not thinking about the end result. They're not thinking about what happened in the past. They're just very present. Do think there's an analogy there?

Gary Miles (05:22.361)
absolutely, completely. And I've used that analogy myself. One of my best friends at my club in Maryland was quite a good tennis player, won a number of tennis championships. And I asked him, Jeff, I said, what makes you so good, so successful? says, I don't care if I win or lose. I'm just enjoying playing tennis. And I played competitive golf as a young person in high school and college. And I was, I think that was a big problem for me because I was so...

focused on the importance of every shot. You know, if I miss this putt, Steve will go one up on me. I better make it. Just creates unnecessary stress and anxiety instead of thinking, I've hit this putt 30 times on the practice screen. This is an easy putt. Just let it roll. Very different mindset. I think the analogy is perfect for lawyers.

Stephen Seckler (06:11.482)
I just had this insight. I play squash and at least in golf, once you've hit a stroke, it's okay if you focus on where the ball is going. In squash, you have to start to think about getting back in position. And my problem in squash is that I'll hit something, I'll hit a shot and if I think it's a good shot, I'm just standing there admiring it. It's not a good way to play squash.

Gary Miles (06:36.002)
Yeah

Only if you're ending the point, and only if the shot's so good, your opponent can't get it.

Stephen Seckler (06:42.871)
Exactly, exactly.

Let's talk about boundary setting. What do you mean by setting boundaries?

Gary Miles (06:54.283)
What I mean is developing a style of practicing law where we recognize our own personal needs and set some limitations on our availability that honors them. It could be as simple as not looking at my cell phone while I'm having dinner with my family or not looking at emails on my laptop or phone after 7 p.m. at night.

or what I think is really important. was, I guess, another podcast one time and there was a therapist on there and she said, we train our clients to expect that we're always available because every time they call, we answer the phone. Every time they email us, we email them right back and they begin to expect constant availability. You would be worried about your physician if you called him at 10 in the morning and he answered the phone.

you that would make you concerned and out of respect for him, you, you, you don't expect him to answer the phone. You expect him to call you back later that day. And I think lawyers can set similar boundaries in their practice. One of the troubles we have as lawyers is we work so hard all day. feel like we're on a hamster wheel. At the end of the day, we don't have many hours billed and we don't know what in the world we got done. And instead I really encouraged my clients to set.

times when they are unavailable for phone calls or emails, where they can just focus on their work and get it done. And I think that's a very healthy boundary to

Stephen Seckler (08:32.934)
lawyers that work at large law firms particularly when they're more junior i think they have a lot of trouble with this and i think part of it is they are working in an environment where they are expected to have very limited boundaries so is there anything you would say about the associate who's being responsive at ten o'clock at night to the partner who sends them an email

Gary Miles (08:56.833)
Yeah, I've actually spoken on this topic at two conferences and I would have a discussion with that partner.

at least in terms of the daytime boundaries and explain, I'll get more work done for you in less time and better if I have a couple hours in the day where I'm not interrupted because interruptions, I have a hard time getting back on task. And I find that if they can convince the partner to give that a try, then it actually works. The partner will be pleased with the fact.

that the associates get their work done better.

In terms of the evening texts, I think that's a very unhealthy practice and there may be limitations in how much you could change. but I actually wrote a blog and did a podcast about this topic recently where, know, the managing partner who does that is setting a very bad example. I call it the invisible curriculum. The, the visible curriculum is when you have a mentor, we train you how to practice aerial law. We have CLEs.

The invisible curriculum is I send you a text at 10 PM at night. I expect you to answer it right away. And, I would probably have a discussion when you, when you send me those texts at 10 PM. do you expect an immediate response? Is that what you're looking for? Or is it something can wait in the morning? And, if it wait in the morning, maybe you'll wait to send it to me in the morning, but if it can wait until the morning, I won't intend to respond to it unless you somehow flag it to me as being urgent.

Gary Miles (10:37.112)
because so often they're sent just out of bad habit or without an intention of there being immediate response. But yet the associate feels like better answer this, the ball Senate. And that's really, can lead to burnout when someone can feel like they're ready to go bed at 10 PM and they get a text. have to answer.

Stephen Seckler (10:59.726)
Okay, picking up on that, why is boundary setting particularly difficult for lawyers?

Gary Miles (11:05.614)
Well, and this is actually a great example, because we feel we have to please all those around us. Certainly our managing partner is important, and we feel an obligation to please him. But even those people we have control over, like our clients, we view our constant availability and our unbridled dedication to our clients as being

what got us to where we are, what made us so successful. And I know people have told me, I'm afraid if I don't take that call, they'll leave and find another lawyer. And I would say that's actually not the case. Because if you're my client, Steve, and I explained to you that between the hours of eight and 10, I don't take calls. I'm working on clients' files in a very focused manner.

And I don't mind you calling me between those hours, but no, unless it's absolutely an emergency, I won't be able to take your call. But I assure you that when I finish my work at 10, I'll call you right back because I want to get your work done faster and better. And I find that having focused time to work on your file helps me to do that. And when that's explained to clients, they say, that sounds great. Thanks for letting me know. But if instead I say that, and then the call comes in at

930 and I answer it and I get distracted from my task, I've just blown the whole boundary that I so intentionally set because I'm afraid of really setting that boundary, abiding by it because it might undermine my, what I think is my success as a lawyer, is being constantly available, constantly on task, always there for the clients. And that's really, I think, not accurate.

Stephen Seckler (12:53.348)
I love the way you frame that in two parts. One is taking charge and being proactive in communication, both with partners and with clients. And I also love the way you frame it as the benefit to the client and the benefit to the partner.

Gary Miles (13:12.205)
I think it is a mutual benefit. I think, you know, we obviously can't control our managing partners, but I know of lawyers who tried this with their bosses. They just give me this opportunity and we'll see how it works. And some of it is kind of reorienting the managing partner to honoring that boundary either by not sending messages or knowing that if they come through, there's, they won't be immediately answered. And generally they find.

They like when their associates get more work done better, more efficiently, and grow to think that's a good way to do business.

Stephen Seckler (13:50.492)
Do you think lawyers have more of a sense of urgency than a lot of their clients do?

Gary Miles (13:57.012)
I don't know how to compare one with the other. think both are problems. think lawyers have too great of a sense of urgency. my former partner every day would say, I have a crisis and they really were never crises. They might've been initial stressors, but they weren't ever true emergency. Once while there might've been a trip, but very seldom were they true emergencies. That was a misnomer. But I also think because we have become so immediately responsive, clients have grown to expect that.

that they call us and we don't answer and don't answer for an hour and a half, they'll text us, I haven't heard from you. And I think we've created that environment.

Stephen Seckler (14:39.992)
You talk about the difference between operating from external authority versus internal authority. Can you explain what you mean by those concepts and how they show up in a lawyer's daily practice?

Gary Miles (14:51.213)
Sure. External authority is my getting my sense of self-worth and my confidence from external circumstances. I get a jury verdict. The judge ruled my way. My client sent me a nice email. My partner said, job well done. Those are nice things. But there are days that we lose a jury trial. The judge rules against us. A client, even without good reason, gets angry at us.

and frustrated because we didn't do something well enough or fast enough. Or our partner, despite the many great works we did, hyper focuses on something that wasn't so good. And all of a sudden our confidence is shattered. In other words, we don't have control over those external circumstances. I didn't have control over losing that motion for summary judgment I discussed earlier. I only had control over the quality of the work that I did. And when we wrestle an external authority, every

stressful event, a trial, a hearing, a client meeting with a difficult client, meeting with our managing partner is a test of our worth. If it goes poorly, all of a sudden we think, I must not be that good because a client was displeased. So when we change the focus to internal authority, we're judging ourselves by our effort, our dedication, our focus, our service to our client. And sometimes we do all those things and things

don't necessarily work out right. But no longer is the trial I'm about to head into a test of my worth. It's a test of the legal issues. My worth is determined by the work I've already done. And it's much more freeing. It comes back to what we said before about sports. If you hit a bad shot in squash, that doesn't in itself make you a bad squash player. cause you hit a lot of good shots, but in

law we think if we have that one thing that doesn't work out well, we're losers. And that causes so much stress and so much anxiety in really every realm of the law.

Stephen Seckler (16:56.88)
How might that relate to marketing business development?

Gary Miles (17:02.027)
I think it completely connects with that because if we're doing business development and I walk into my meeting with you thinking, I have to really impress Steve. I really need his business. I need to say all the right things. And then when you say, thank you. I'm very happy with my current lawyer. I feel like I'm, a loser. But if instead I think I'm just going to focus on listening to Steve, being comfortable, having fun, enjoying meeting another person.

and getting to know him well, if I get his business, fine. And if I don't, then maybe someday later I will, or I'll get other business. And it's a much more relaxed, much more connected way to do business development.

Stephen Seckler (17:47.761)
I would add that. Marketing. Is a volume business actually scratch that Jelco just cut that out. I'm trying to do a much better job of not inserting myself into the conversation and letting you be the expert anyway. Cut cut all that out. Jelco please.

You've also written about the difference between perfectionism and professionalism. What do you think that lawyers... Let me ask that again. Sorry, Shalco, I'm going to ask the question again. You've also written about the difference between perfectionism and professionalism. Why do lawyers so often confuse the two?

Gary Miles (18:28.087)
Well, because they're based on similar characteristics, effort, dedication, hard work, but they come from entirely different places. Perfectionism comes from a place of fear. We're afraid of making a mistake, afraid of losing, afraid of being judged. Professionalism comes from a place of confidence and service. I want to do a great job for my client. I want to focus. I want to work hard.

And again, like internal authority, it's an analogous concept. They're related to each other. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out, but it won't be due to my lack of effort. So perfectionism is based on fear. Professionalism is based on confidence.

Stephen Seckler (19:12.1)
Okay, this next question, I really love what you've had to say about this. You've talked about how time management using productivity tools or taking longer vacations aren't necessarily the solution. Can you say why focusing on those things fails sometimes?

Gary Miles (19:29.653)
Focusing on those things is not a bad thing, but the reason it often fails is we haven't changed the problem. The problem isn't that we don't know how to be productive or don't know how to take a vacation. The problem is what we talked about at length earlier. External authority drives us to interrupt our purposeful productivity tool.

because you called me on the phone. Now I got dropped working on that motion because I want to take your call. I don't want to miss that call. In other words, we haven't changed our identity. haven't changed from judging what we do based on those external circumstances to setting boundaries because we're confident in who we are and how we practice. I can't take a vacation relaxed because I have to look at my email and see if any client needs me because I want to be indispensable.

So it comes back to really, haven't changed. We haven't changed the problem. The problem is how we see ourselves. Instead of seeing ourselves as valuable to our clients, we see ourselves as being indispensable. If they need us, we don't answer, are we a bad lawyer? The answer is no, we're not. Because we've let our clients know we're on vacation and we'll be off the grid for a week. And that's perfectly fine.

Stephen Seckler (20:46.781)
I've heard you use the phrase sustainable excellence. What do mean by that?

Gary Miles (20:51.757)
Uh, related to all the things we've talked about, we don't set boundaries and we don't delegate well because we want to make sure everything is just perfect. We want to make sure we're always responsive. We want to make sure that our junior associate or our paralegal do things as well and perfectly as we would have them done. Oh heck, I'm not going to let Steve do it. I'll do it myself because I could do it faster and better than the time it takes to train Steve to do it. And, and what happens then? Um,

I don't ever delegate because I don't trust you and I haven't trained you and mentored you to be as good as I am. And our goal should be not that we're indispensable and the clients want only us, but that we build a team who provides the level of service and quality that I provide. I can build a team that could be as good to the clients as I am. And then I can take a vacation and know

that all my matters are in good hands. I can be in trial for three days and not worry about what might be going wrong at the office. I did a poll on LinkedIn and kind of asked that question. you're away for two weeks and if you didn't check in, what would happen? And the answer should be things run just as smoothly as when I'm there. That was not the, all the majority answers were things fall apart or things are in chaos or some answer like that.

And that's not sustainable. In the beginning, we can, through our hard effort, our perfectionism, our dedication, we can build a practice, build a reputation. But then we get to the point where we're 40 or 45 and our kids are growing and we're not present for them because we haven't had boundaries and delegation and a team that support that service. So to me, that's what I mean by sustainable excellence.

Unsustainable excellence is when I'm indispensable and I have to be totally responsible for everything myself.

Stephen Seckler (22:55.78)
I've met a few lawyers like that, including some of my including some of my clients. Your personal story includes a profound.

Gary Miles (22:59.297)
There are many.

There are many.

Stephen Seckler (23:12.156)
Your personal story includes a profound transformation, including getting sober in 1991. How did that experience shape the work you do now with lawyers?

Gary Miles (23:22.125)
Um, it, it let me see. My transformation was about much more than no longer drinking. Um, it changed me in so many ways and how I interacted with people and how I saw myself and,

Gary Miles (23:43.694)
The transformation was more than from black to white. It really was very, very dramatic. And it let me know that whoever you are and whatever you're struggling with, whether it's setting boundaries or worrying too much about clients or stress, there are solutions. And there are people like you and me who are willing to help. I think every lawyer who is in a place where they feel so overwhelmed and stuck and powerless to change their circumstances should know

that that can be transformed as well.

Stephen Seckler (24:17.468)
I will add that if you are listening and you have substance abuse issues that you're concerned about. Let me rephrase that joke. I got a frog in my throat. Sorry. a second.

Stephen Seckler (24:38.564)
Let me just add that every state in the country has a lawyers assistance program, which is a great place to start if you're thinking about these issues and you want free and confidential support. In Massachusetts, we have lawyers concerned for lawyers. And Gary, what is the organization called where you were very involved?

Gary Miles (24:59.757)
You know, I practiced in Maryland and was very active with their lawyer assistance program. And that's the same name in North Carolina, where I'm also supportive of their efforts, the lawyers assistance program. That's the name in many states.

Stephen Seckler (25:15.046)
Can you say a little something about your book, Breaking Free? What led you to write it? It's a great book, by the way. Everybody should get it. And what are the four pillars that you encourage lawyers to think about when they are evaluating their careers?

Gary Miles (25:29.687)
So there's sort of two different questions there. Breaking free is about how we can find personal and professional freedom as a lawyer. And I talk about the 12 prisons of the mind, some of which we talked about today, people pleasing, perfectionism, comparison, expectations. I struggle a lot with expectations. I expected to win the trial, always. And when I won, I was like, okay, that's what I expected. I didn't celebrate it. When I lost, I was crushed.

And then I talk about the 12 keys to unlock those 12 prisons. Things like acceptance and gratitude and mentoring and mindfulness. Now I focus my work with lawyers on three pillars. The one which we've talked about so far, you know, has to do with internal authority versus external authority. The other has to do with building a sustainable

practice and the other is having an authentic practice doing doing what we enjoy enjoy doing the kind of work we enjoy doing working for the kinds of clients and the kinds of matters that fulfills us and energize us instead of frustrating. There's some lawyers who are full of internal authority and have sustainable practices, but they hate what they're doing. That doesn't work either. It doesn't work either. They may hate their firm. They may hate the kind of practice, whatever it is they may

be very displeased with their practice. So those are the three pillars, I think, all of which are essential and kind of in that order, essential to building a practice that is freeing, that we really enjoy. That on Sunday night, we're like, I'm looking forward to going to work tomorrow, instead of dreading it like so many lawyers feel.

Stephen Seckler (27:21.68)
You've worked with many senior lawyers whose identities are deeply tied to their practices. What does

You've worked with many senior lawyers whose identities are deeply tied to their practices. Why does that make succession planning and career transition so difficult for senior lawyers?

Gary Miles (27:44.471)
Well, they see themselves so much as being a lawyer that they have a hard time seeing who they are if they are no longer an active lawyer. And there really, guess, are two major reasons why. The first is they may not have built a sustainable practice because they see themselves as being indispensable. And if I am no longer in the practice, does the practice continue?

And it makes it very, very hard to transition out of a practice if when you walk out the door, everything falls apart. And that's the importance of building a team who is trained to your standards, who has learned everything you've learned, who's built, your team has built great relationships with your clients versus someone who still does it all on their own with some people doing some services for them. Because when that person leaves, they're done. And the other is...

without living a life where we built.

other interests, hobbies, family, and we've worked 70 hour weeks our whole life and now we're getting to age where it's time to stop working. What's our life? Who are we if we're not the indispensable lawyer that everybody honors and proclaims? So those are the two big challenges.

Stephen Seckler (29:06.042)
We're getting near the end, Gary. Two last topics. Basically two last pieces of advice for you to give. What advice would you give someone who is feeling stuck in their career, feeling trapped by their own success? And second. What are? Sorry, Jelco, I'm going to repeat that again.

Stephen Seckler (29:31.152)
Gary, we're getting near the end here and I just have two final topics that I hope you can quickly address. Lawyers feeling trapped by their own success and lawyers setting boundaries and they are topics we've talked about, but what is one piece of advice you can give in each of those areas?

Gary Miles (29:51.749)
for the lawyer who's feeling trapped by their success, I guess I have two thoughts. The first is spend some time and reflect when you feel trapped, what makes you feel trapped? What is it about your life that you're as a lawyer that you don't like that causes you stress or anxiety? Cause so often we don't think about that. We just feel overwhelmed or stressed or unhappy and we don't know why. And the second is to find someone like you to talk to about it. Someone who can listen.

and help give some perspective about it. What was the second question, Steve?

Stephen Seckler (30:29.014)
was it was all it. asked a compound question. Let me let me let Jelco eliminate all of that. I'm going to re ask the question so that it's not a compound question so that Gary could answer two separate questions.

Gary, we're getting near the end here. have two more questions for you. First, what can you? I am getting tongue tied this morning. OK, let me start that question again. Gary, we're getting near the end and I have two final questions for you. Basically, what advice would you give for a lawyer who is feeling increasingly stuck and trapped by his or own? my God.

Okay, last time.

Gary, we're getting near the end here and I just have two more questions. Basically, what pieces of advice would you give first to lawyers who are feeling increasingly stuck, lawyers who are feeling trapped by their own success?

Gary Miles (31:36.914)
I would encourage them first to take some time to self-reflect. They're so busy, but find an hour on a Saturday morning or go for a walk and think about what is it about my life as a lawyer that makes me feel trapped or stuck? What is it that causes me stress? What is it that I don't like?

that causes me anxiety. What is it that I enjoy? And then try to see what changes you can make, if any, to your legal practice to do more of those things you enjoy, and less of those things you don't. And the second is to work with an outside mentor, someone like you who's familiar with the legal profession, knows how it works and can be a good sounding board, a good support system, and...

give some wise guidance so that that lawyer can find a better way to practice law.

Stephen Seckler (32:33.239)
Okay, and finally, if a lawyer listening today realizes that he or she needs to start setting better boundaries, what is one practical step that she can take this week?

Gary Miles (32:45.612)
Set one boundary and only one boundary. Don't set them all, but just pick one that would cause a little bit of a change without being end of the world. And it could be something like putting your cell phone away for the hour around dinner time, or not looking at your email after 8 p.m., or one day a month, one Saturday, where you completely disconnect from work. Just set one boundary.

and then stick to it for a month. And absolutely stick to it. And if you can't, just keep trying a little bit harder, but start with one boundary to see that you can do it and to see that the world doesn't change when you keep that boundary in place.

Stephen Seckler (33:34.807)
I love it. Great advice. Start small. Okay, final question that I ask all my guests. What is one podcast, streaming television series or book that you'd recommend and this is purely for enjoyment?

Gary Miles (33:50.797)
Well, I'm going to recommend two and I know you gave me one, but I'm going to expand it to two because there are two that I love and I have a hard time picking between them. The first is called Everyday Legacy by Cody, C-O-D-I Schuen, S-H-E-W-A-N. And I did enjoy reading it very much, but not just for enjoyment because it helped me see that our legacy, we want to leave our

Stephen Seckler (33:54.427)
you

Gary Miles (34:17.932)
errors isn't just how much money we leave them in our state, but it's the memories we can create one day at a time of and create a legacy of how we want to be remembered by those who who love us. The second is called Seven Days in Utopia Golf Sacred Journey, which on its surface is an enjoyable book about golf, but it really applies to many of us in our life and specifically lawyers because it helps us

Stephen Seckler (34:37.628)
Ha

Gary Miles (34:48.266)
focus on the lies we tell ourselves, some of which we talked about today in different context, that really hamper us from being as free as we should be in our practice.

Stephen Seckler (35:01.19)
So not only can Gary talk to you about setting boundaries, about building a successful practice, he could also speak to you about golf.

Gary Miles (35:08.832)
That's right. Absolutely.

Stephen Seckler (35:12.732)
Gary, this has been a great conversation. always enjoy seeing you at the. I'm really having a hard time today.

Gary, this has been a great conversation. I've really enjoyed getting to know you. We see each other now fairly regularly at provisors meetings, which is great. I really appreciate you joining me. If anyone in our conversation. my God, Jesus.

Stephen Seckler (35:42.438)
If anyone in our audience has follow-up questions or they want to buy your book, how can they reach you?

Gary Miles (35:49.484)
Um, they can reach me on LinkedIn. Um, I'm very prominent there. Gary miles. Um, my website is garymiles.net. There are links to my book, to my podcasts there, and you can always email me at gary at garymiles.net and Steve, thank you so much. Uh, for the opportunity be on. I admire who you are, but also the work you do for lawyers.

Stephen Seckler (36:13.806)
Again, mutual appreciation society. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please tell others and rate us on iTunes or your favorite podcast app and share it with someone who you think might be interested. If you'd like to continue the conversation, I welcome your inquiries and invite you to set up a time to speak with me about your own career or marketing concerns.

I've been coaching lawyers for almost 30 years and I'm happy to do a free 30 minute consultation. You could sign up on my website at Seckler.com. That's Seckler.com. On my website, you could also find links to more episodes of Council to Council and get access to many free career marketing and leadership resources. In the meantime, thanks for listening.